paininthecasbutt:

apersnicketylemon:

livinginthequestion:

apersnicketylemon:

apersnicketylemon:

Pedophilia is bad should not be a radical statement.

No really, please reblog this if you can, because this site in general, but fandom spaces especially bad for this, to the point where people are genuinely afraid of harassment they may face for saying ‘Pedophilia is a bad thing and you probably should not encourage it’ or for calling it what it is. Fandom spaces are also especially bad for screaming about how it’s ‘just fiction’ when we know damn well that fiction impacts reality.

Actual, real-life pedophilia is bad. People dealing with their personal pain by writing about it, in a fictional setting where tags and opt-in measures allow others to avoid it, are fine; in fact, a very effective way of working through one’s issues. Oversimplifying the process from ‘pedophilia is bad’ to ‘all people who write fiction about it are bad’ is policing in its worst form. 

Actually, trauma survivor here,  these people are in fact still furthering the normalization of the trauma they are working through, while also actively hurting other survivors!

If you feel the need to write it to process it, I understand that completely. In fact I’ve DONE that as a part of processing my own trauma in the past! However, you do not get to publish it into public spheres, including online, where all it will do is hurt other people. Likewise, this form of trauma processing is not, in fact, helping you!

These people include other survivors who may have been trying to avoid it and were unable to, people who are being groomed for abuse, people who are already being abused, and do not recognize that abuse for what it is, and the person writing it (assuming they ARE in fact a trauma survivor, because the vast majority of the people shipping siblings, minor/adult relations, and other abuses, are not in fact survivors of this. They just get their jollies off to it!).

Likewise, this is not, in fact, a coping mechanism, and it is not fine. This is retraumatization and self harm in many cases, being written off as ‘coping’. When you publish that, particularly the people who are writing it as ‘romance’, you hurt other survivors. In fact it’s predominantly survivors calling this shit out.

When you have a dozen people telling you ‘if you need to process it through these means, you cannot publish it because this is normalizing it and hurting all of us and people who will be hurt by it’, then you need to recognize that what you are doing is hurting someone and then saying “I’M JUST COPING!!!” which makes you an abusive piece of shit.

Now, consider the fact that you essentially just said “pedophilia is bad BUT FICTION IS OKAY!! FICTIONAL PEDOPHILIA IS ALWAYS FINE AND EFFECTIVE FOR HELPING PEOPLE SO YOU CAN’T CALL ANYONE OUT ON IT EVER!! YOU’RE POLICING COPING!!!”

Like, no. Most of those people writing hebdophilia, abuse, incest, and pedophilia fics on AO3 in some fandoms are NOT coping with a goddamned thing and pretending they are and saying ‘buuuuut fictional pedophilia/hebdophilia/abuse should never be policed!!’ is only going to create MORE victims. (like, I am in one of these fandoms. The people shipping the 25year old with the 14-17 year olds are not ‘coping’, they are fetishizing. Their argument is not ‘It’s my coping mechanism’ it’s ‘but it’s just fiction!!’).

And yes, coping SHOULD be policed. If you are hurting others, normalizing abuse, and retraumatizing/hurting yourself, it’s a bad way to cope, and isn’t coping but self harm, and you need to let it go and find something healthier. You should be helped through this process, definitely, but you should also be working on it, particularly if your ‘coping’ is being read by actual pedophiles, attracting them to your work.

Yes, changing how you cope can be hard, but it is hardly impossible, and acting like people using these things to cope should be allowed to without ever being challenged in that is actively preventing their recovery too. It was when I gave up self harming and found better ways to deal with stress (baking, video games, a long bath, a bad movie, a favourite comedy show) that I began to heal and recover.

I was hardly perfect, it was hard work, but if you actually care about survivors you should consider listening to us when we say that what you’re talking about still hurts us, doesn’t help us work through our trauma, and is not being primarily produced for or by us and therefore continues the normalization of the abuses we faced while failing to display healthy relationships and thus draws in more future victims who do not know the difference between ‘healthy’ and ‘abusive’ due to the excessive normalization both in fanfiction and in published fiction and other media, and society at large encouraging hebdophilia already especially.

Also listen to us when we say we are tired of our abuse being fetishized for the consumption of others, particularly by people who are writing/drawing it and have never been in that situation themselves, and they and their readers ignoring us saying these things. As these people are often also fetishizing mlm and wlw relationships we’re especially tired that they are portraying us as hebdophiles and pedophiles when we’re already accused of this by the outside world too.

@rosemoonweaver what do you think about this?

I’ll tell you what I think.

First, I think that unless you’re a licensed mental health professional you have no business telling anyone how bad their therapist approved coping methods are. I’ll get into why I think that’s so insidious in a little bit.

Second, I think that you can write absolutely anything fictional AND publish it no matter how vile or disturbing the content is.

Third, I think our lemon friend here is slippery and has gone from “this thing we all agree is bad is bad” to “all these things that make me uncomfortable are bad and don’t you dare publish them ever”. And I think that is really harmful.

Alright. Let me break this down a little more and refute some shit.

First of all, the mental health thing. How dare you? How dare you tell people who are survivors just trying to get by that the coping methods they’ve found or have been offered to them by a therapist are bad for them. Do you have any proof that this coping method literally helps no one? I mean actual studies and research, not individual testimony. No? Didn’t think so, because it’s not true. This is argumentum ad populum. If a bunch of people say it, it must be true! No, no it’s not. A bunch of people say that the earth is flat and that’s bullshit, too.

Here’s the thing – writing about trauma is hard. It’s painful. It kinda sucks sometimes. Last year I wrote the aftermath of a car wreck and I had to keep getting up and walking around my kitchen because even though it was very brief and not very detailed, it struck a nerve. It was tough to do, but you know what? I felt better after I did it. I was able to process my own feelings a little better, and in the end, I was proud of myself for doing it. But here’s the thing, you say that we’re not allowed to share that with other people and I have to ask why. When I first talked to my therapist about writing my pain out (she suggested it, by the way) she wanted me to share it when I finished. She wanted me to either share it with her or in a small group or even online because a very important part of the process for me is to be heard. I need people to hear me. I need people to believe me. I need, after years of being gaslighted and hiding away in the corners of my own mind, for people to witness me. And a great way to do that is to share the work I’ve written, in a way that makes me comfortable, in a place where there are safeguards so that others who might not want to see it don’t have to. For me, that means content warnings all over the place and posting under a cut if we’re talking tumblr.

And you know, the idea that work that deals with sensitive topics can only hurt people is false anyway. I’ve been triggered by some fiction. It was properly tagged but I read it anyway, thinking I was in an okay state of mind but I wasn’t and it brought up some icky intrusive memories. And, you know, that sucked. I lost a lot of sleep over that and had myself a panic attack. But you know what? I survived. I had tools at my disposal to calm down, to center myself, and to relax. But I’m not mad at the author for writing that stuff. I’m not mad at them for sharing it, either. I’m mad at the person who did the things that caused me to be traumatized. And, you know, I have hope that they way the particular topic that triggered me was addressed might’ve helped someone. The whole scene that freaked me out was a character realizing they’d been abused and if that helps just one person understand what happened to them wasn’t okay, I’m over the moon happy for it. I’ve had lots of friends (all who write darkfic) tell me that they’ve had comments from people who thank them for allowing them to understand what happened to them and how it wasn’t okay. Hell, I personally have learned what the hell gaslighting looks like because of fanfic and that’s helped me understand how it was done to me!

And I know, the examples I gave were car crash related and not CSA but you know what? The attitude and impression you give off isn’t good for survivors. I don’t have to share anymore than I already have about the shit I’ve been through or the crap other people have done to me, so I won’t. I don’t want to use my abuse as some kind of instant credentials. Darkfic (aka cope shipping) can help a lot of people. It doesn’t help everyone, though, and you know what, that’s okay too! A little too much dark stuff can be bad for people (like me) and it’s about knowing your limits and knowing when to take a step back and when to not engage. But, I’m sorry, I really really hate the idea that cope shipping or writing darkfic or writing The Bad Thing is somehow bad in and of itself. It breeds a deep shame in people, one I’ve had to beat back with a stick so that I’m okay with expressing myself to people who will actually care. I don’t want survivors to feel like writing about their abuse in a fictionalized way is a bad thing. I don’t want survivors to feel guilty about sharing their experiences with others, no matter how they chose to do it. We deal with enough guilt and shame and blame already, we don’t need to put more of it on ourselves.

Second, the fiction thing. I believe that there is nothing you can’t write about. I’m serious, too. I’m so over the moral panic over what people are reading and writing. I love torture porn horror movies. Saw 6 is one of my favorites, and it’s gorey and bloody and completely contradictory to the whole “save yourself by saving others and changing your ways” kinda message the other movies had. But I love it because it’s creative and gory and sometimes I just wanna be a little grossed out. I’ve read so much rape, molestation, genocide, torture, false imprisonment, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-semitism, and murder in books. A few years back I read a book called The Ministry of Special Cases which was so disturbing I couldn’t sleep for two nights. And the really disturbing thing was that the book was a fictionalized way of bringing attention to shit that really happened in Argentina. None of the fiction I’ve been exposed to has turned me into a monster. None of the objectively terrible crap I’ve enjoyed in fiction has made me a bad person. That’s because it’s fiction and I knew right from wrong before I started reading the books and watching the movies. I know that murder and torture aren’t okay and if I really saw someone being murdered and/or tortured I would probably cry and throw up, but in fiction it’s fine.

Fiction exists for so many reasons. Sometimes it’s there to titillate, sometimes it’s to gross you out. Sometimes fiction is there to give you a world you might like to escape to and other times it’s to give you a world you’d want to escape from. Fiction is catharsis and hope and despair and repulsion and love and lies and death and rebirth. But, most importantly, it’s not real. Fiction is made up. Nothing is really happening here, other than the reader is sitting and moving their eyes across a page or staring at a screen. Can fiction affect people though? Sure! It absolutely can! But it’s not a case of monkey-see-monkey-do. Humans have critical thinking skills and we don’t just imitate what we see in fiction because we think it’s fun or hot. If you’ve ever seen a work of “romanticized noncon” or “romanticized incest” and you were grossed out or repulsed by it, you’ve proven my point for me. We don’t automatically see a thing that we know is bad and suddenly go “you know, maybe I’ve been wrong” because it hasn’t been painted in a bad light. Children, too, are a lot smarter than people seem to give them credit for. Children know the difference between fantasy and reality. Adults do too, unless they’re having mental issues and then that’s a separate issues I don’t want to get into here.

Now, I know it’s kind of uncomfortable for some people, but the fact of the matter is is that people have some kinks and fantasies that are taboo. Some people have rape fantasies, and you know what? That’s perfectly okay. There’s nothing wrong with having a rape fantasy. It does not make you a rapist or “damaged”. And some people would like to express those fantasies either in a safe and consensual way with a partner or with fiction. That’s 100% okay. The thing is, like I said before, when reading, the only thing that’s really happening is that the reader is moving their eyes across a page. No one is actually being raped. No one is actually a rapist. Can it trigger discomfort in some readers if the rape is romanticized? Yes. Can it trigger bad memories and panic attacks in some readers? Yes. Does that mean that that piece of fiction should not exist? No. It does not. Sorrynotsorry, the fiction can still exist and I think it should. It’s a separate issue, really, but I don’t think anyone should feel shame about having fantasies that are consensual (like consensual non-consent is). I don’t want people feeling damaged or gross. That helps no one.

And before this argument comes up, no pedophilia is not a kink. Pedophilia is a mental issue and if anyone is having thoughts about kids of attraction to kids (real kids) they should seek help. There is help available and it should be addressed. That’s as much as I’m willing to say on the topic, but again, if someone wants to depict that in fiction I support them, too.

Look, I get the disgust over heavy topics that are written as titillation. I really do understand it. But I don’t agree that it’s always retraumatization and self-harm. I don’t agree that it should be policed. I don’t agree that if you’re not writing it “the right way” you’re bad and not really a survivor. Seriously, fuck that. I can’t stand no-true-Scotsman’s and that’s what that is. If you don’t write or ship it the “right way” you’re not a survivor – fuck that. Every person is different. Every shipper is different. We all write things for different reasons and sometimes some ships are better suited to work through issues that might not even really be trauma but is still something that bothers the author. Just because someone isn’t a victim or survivor doesn’t mean they’re barred from writing The Bad Thing. I hate this reductionist way of thinking. It started as “you’re only allowed if you cope ship” then it was “you can only cope ship if you’re specifically affected by the issues you’re writing personally” and now it’s “nope! No cope shipping allowed”. Nope, screw all of that. You’re allowed to write it. You’re allowed to write whatever the fuck you want. Now, this is a separate issue, (again) but I also think we’re allowed to talk about The Bad Things in fic. I think we’re allowed to say “hey, this thing here? That’s rape if it were to happen in real life and rape isn’t okay.” or “this is abuse if it happened IRL” or “this is sexist and here’s why”. BUT I think it can be done without attacking the authors and making them defensive so that they won’t listen. There’s a way to discuss things with people if you think they’re not taking it seriously, but you know what? If their response is “yeah I know, I just don’t care” or “yeah, I know, that’s why I tagged it like I did” then your job is done. It’s over. Move on and do something else. (ALSO, TAGS ON A FIC ARE THERE BECAUSE THE AUTHOR KNOWS WHAT THEY’RE WRITING. IF IT’S LABELED “ABUSE” IT’S BECAUSE THE AUTHOR KNOWS THEY ARE DEPICTING ABUSE NO MATTER HOW IT’S WRITTEN IN THE NARRATIVE.)

Fandom is a really cool space because we can always have discussions about the implications of our works and how we come across with what we’re trying to say. So, you know, we can have actual fruitful discussions about what abuse is and what it looks like while also depicting it and all the complicated things that go along with being a abuse survivor (like still loving your abuser, thinking you deserved it, guilt, shame, reluctance to talk to others, fear ect.). We don’t have to make every work of fiction perfect or wonderful or an outright condemnation of The Bad Thing because sometimes we’re still working on it. Sometimes we just need to say something and throw it out there.

Lastly, the more I think about this, the more insulted I am. OP admitted that writing about their trauma was therapeutic but has now decided it’s wrong for others to do it. Which, you know… that’s just fucking cruel. No, it’s not appropriate to walk out into the middle of the street and scream about your abuse because you’re not really doing it in a way that everyone present has volunteered to be subjected to. That’s not okay. But putting something up on your personal blog on the internet, tagging it properly, or writing it and putting it on Ao3? That’s not the same thing. Tags exist as warnings and filters. Ao3 is a safe space for readers and writers. It allows writers to put their work up, no matter how many Bad Things it has in it, and it has an organized tag system that allows readers to know what they’re getting into. And I think that’s amazing! It’s wonderful to know what kind of themes and topics you’re about to deal with while reading. Ao3 allows people to decide whether or not they’re ready to engage with the topics present and that’s fantastic!

But you know, that can’t happen if we don’t write it. It may surprise some people, but reading something that deals with a person’s trauma can be cathartic. Again, trauma is complicated. Sometimes one of the brain’s defense mechanisms is to fetishize that which hurts us. Sometimes the brain goes “hey, that Bad Thing is scary but let’s make it not scary! Let’s handle it this way instead!” and that’s healthy. It’s a way of processing and recontextualizing so that we can start to work through it. Does everyone do this? No. Do some people? Yes. Is it okay? Yes. There’s nothing wrong with it. But the people who aren’t comfortable with writing their own trauma or haven’t reached that point yet might need fiction to do it with. If we’re not allowed to write it, the people who need to read it can’t do that. So you know, if there is just one trauma survivor reading a fic to cope and process that was written by a non-trauma survivor, I think that fic is more than worth it.

But I said I’d point out why the idea that I can’t share my trauma is so insidious, so I’ll address that now. It’s telling survivors to shut up. If I can’t talk about who hurt me and what happened in a way I’m comfortable, how can I ever really help myself? How can I heal if I’m not allowed to express myself? Yeah, I have a therapist and a support group but that’s not enough. I need to be acknowledged. Survivors need to be seen and by telling them that they’re not allowed to express themselves in a safe place (which is what fiction is) you’re effectively telling them to shut the hell up. The message is effectively, “no one cares what happened to you. You’re gross. Stop talking” and that’s so fucking gross and cruel and wrong. No! We let survivors speak!

I know plenty of people who the softer things don’t actually help. I’m one of them. Taking a bath doesn’t help me process my trauma. Baking doesn’t help. Jogging and mindfulness and drinking smoothies doesn’t help. I need to write about it. I need to express it and physically talking about it, physically saying “this happened to me”, is too difficult for me. I’m getting better, but a lot of that is thanks to writing and the community of darkfic writers who help me process, who listen to me, who are the shining light in the dark for me. I’ve been free of self-harm for a year this past October and you know what? I think a lot of that is because I’ve given myself permission to express my suffering. I no longer have to hurt myself because I can be seen and that’s so fucking liberating.

To the survivors out there who are uncomfortable with darkfic existing, I sympathize. I actually do. There are things in fiction that piss me off and squick me and make me mad. There are things I don’t like seeing. But, it’s not my issue. I can’t tell other people they’re not allowed to write it. I can wonder about their motives, but I can’t say for sure what those motives are b/c I don’t know them. I understand the discomfort. I understand the side-eyeing. I understand being disgusted. But I’m not going to tell them to stop because there’s a chance that writing it the way they’re writing it is saving their life. Bottom line is this: there is no way to know why every person writing what they’re writing is doing it. Are some doing it for titillation? Yes. Are some coping? Yes. Are some harming themselves? Yes. But it’s not up for me to say that everyone participating is doing the same thing and I damn well am not going to condemn a whole group or practice that I know can help just because it makes me feel weird. Have a little compassion and empathy. Try to understand that we’re all at different places in our journey in life, and that some people cope differently and that’s okay.

OP asks that you listen survivors and I have. I’ve got my own thoughts and opinions and so do friends of mine who are survivors. We disagree with the notion that darkfic shouldn’t exist.