Tag: poe dameron

it’s so interesting how a lot of people who love kylo dislike poe and a lot of people who love poe dislike kylo. there isn’t this sort of disparity with some of the other good-guy characters like, say, finn (every single kylo stan i follow also loves finn even if they don’t stan him actively) so i wonder if there’s a reason for it like a disparity in fictional preferences.

leofgyth:

Coming from the perspective of someone who loves Kylo and hopes for a redemption for Ben Solo: I don’t pay a lot of attention to anti-Poe discourse so I can’t say for sure, but there are a few things I can think of:

1) A reaction against antis who want to match up Rey with anyone who isn’t Kylo/Ben. With the “I’m Rey” “I know” at the very end of TLJ, I guess there were people popping up who wanted to compare this with Leia and Han’s “I know” moment (which was quite different!). So, new Poe/Rey shippers, not “I think this would be a cool pairing” shippers but “this is the canon ship now, Reylo is dead” shippers. So there’s a tendency for Reylos (and others who like Kylo) to push against that (naturally, I think).

2) I do think Poe came across quite badly in TLJ, in ways that Finn (for example) did not. Finn did his very best, completed his arc from “I just want to save Rey” (which is itself admirable) to “Rebel Scum”. Poe, on the other hand, disobeyed direct orders at least twice, although he was forgiven at the end. His heart was in the right place, but the way it was framed in the story was decidedly negative. 

Honestly those are the only two things I can think of, shipping discourse stuff and his slightly negative presentation in TLJ. 

As for why Poe stans don’t like Kylo, I guess for the same reason most antis don’t like him (he’s so evil, killed lots of people, killed his dad, yada yada yada, you know, the usual) (Edit: I’m not saying that Poe stans are antis, I phrased this poorly – “most antis” is distinct from “Poe stans in the first sentence of this paragraph)

I hadn’t considered this before so I’m interested to hear what other people think about it, actually. I personally think Poe is okay, and I love the idea that he and Ben were friends as kids, although I’m not convinced that’s going to be canon. (I do love fan fics that explore their dynamic, though)

I can only speak from myself but part of what puts me off about Poe is the way certain folks in the fandom frame him and talk about him. I high-key hate the whole “he’s the son Leia deserves” “he’s the man Rey deserves” “he’s the Han Solo” kind of discussion because it’s just… icky. (Brief sidebar: if anyone has parallels to Han, it’s Finn. Poe is much closer to Leia. But I really don’t like the ST v OT comparisons like this because the ST are all new characters on different journeys and while some comparisons can be made they’re very different characters and arcs. And also there are way more important “pov” characters in the ST than the OT… so.) 

The other thing that really puts me off is the false dichotomy, which even thought I know is false, I wind up falling into, I guess. If you like Kylo/Ben you can’t like Poe. If you like Poe you can’t like Kylo/Ben. That’s really arbitrary but somehow it’s stuck. I’m less interested in Poe than I am Finn, Rey, and Kylo so I don’t want to put time and energy into correcting the assumption that I *have* to hate him when I’ve got other characters to play with. It’s just not worth the drama that I could endure, honestly. I’m sure the number of people who Stan Poe and hate Kylo and vice verse is probably small, but I don’t feel much like stumbling upon them over a character I’m not super excited about. I think that’s probably most of it, tbh. I think most people don’t actually feel that strongly but worry about stumbling onto people who do so they just all stay away. It’s kind of the issue the whole Star Wars fandom has right now. You either love the ST or you hate it, you either loved Legends or you’re glad they’re de-canonized, you either watch the cartoons or they’re silly garbage (because no one ever has mixed feelings or things they like and things they don’t, apparently). With everything so fragmented, why bother trying to bridge the gap if you don’t even really care that much about one of the sides anyway, you know? 

And there’s just personal preference, too. Poe is my usual kind of character, even after TLJ (more so after TLJ, actually). He’s a bit cocky, suave, loud, determined, headstrong, dedicated, absolutely sure of who he is and what he’s going to do… like yeah, normally that’s my kind of dude. Even if/when he pushes it too far and makes a decision that costs people their lives. Those things that usually attract me to a character are the same things that make other people stay far away, which makes sense, of course. Some folks like cockly flyboys and some folks don’t. 

And, for the record, I don’t hate Poe. He’s fine, I just like other characters more. And I personally dislike the way Poe is often framed by people who don’t like Kylo as “the son Leia deserved” so that makes me less enthusiastic to actually write or play with the character. I also really like the headcanon the he and Ben were childhood friends (maybe even best friends) and even though it’s probably got a zero percent chance of happening, I adore the headcanon/theory that Poe and Ben built BB-8 together as children (because bb-8 totally acts like a droid that was built by little boys). I like fic where they were childhood friends or neighbors, and I think the potential for that kind of drama is often under-explored in fandom. 

Narrative Foils of the ST Part One: Armitage Hux and Poe Dameron

(note: I posted this to reddit about three weeks ago, so if this looks incredibly familiar that’s why)

What is a Narrative Foil?

Simply put, a narrative foil is a character that is used to highlight traits in another character through comparison and contrast. Foils add depth to both characters, as they explore the things define both as characters and how they function in the story. This, of course, doesn’t mean that the characters are limited to how they compare or contrast to the other character in any way, it just means that there are similarities and differences the audience to pay attention to. As long as the characters are well crafted they can stand on their own, regardless of whether or not the foil anyone else.

Hux and Poe are such an interesting set of foils that I’m really surprised I don’t see more discussion of how they reflect one another and what that could mean for the upcoming film. They are very similar even if they are on opposite ends of the spectrum ideologically that it really makes you stop and wonder if there’s so kind of comment of war, in general, being saved up for the finale. I certainly wouldn’t be surprised. Let’s take a look at some of the ways that Hux and Poe are alike.

Children of War

While I would like to stick to the films, for the most part, there are a few details about Hux and Poe that aren’t mentioned in the films that need to be addressed. For one, they are the only two new characters who were born before the Empire fell. Poe was born to rebels two years before the Battle of Endor, while Armitage was born the year of the Battle of Yavin to an imperial father and a kitchen worker. This is highly interesting as both characters can be seen as not only following in the footsteps of their parents but also seem to want to live up to the legacies they were left. Poe’s mother, Shara Bey, was a pilot for the Rebellion. Brendol Hux, Armitage’s father, was an Imperial and later an officer of the First Order. It’s fascinating then, that Poe and Armitage then go on to become focal points for the Resistance and First Order, both organizations that borrow heavily aesthetically and ideologically from the Rebellion and Empire respectively. In a sense, these two characters were raised in a way the predisposed them to the role they now play. In a saga that deals heavily with legacy and what that means, it appears that it’s not just the Skywalkers who have passed on a legacy of conflict.

In some sense, this puts the conflict between the Resistance and the First Order in a new light. This is a multi-generational conflict.

True Believers

As leaders on their respective sides, it should be no surprise that both Poe and Hux really do believe in their causes. Hux’s near orgasmic awe at seeing Starkiller Base fire in TFA and Poe’s grim “we are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down” set both of them up as assured in their desire for the destruction of those who oppose them. Though these two after sometimes played for laughs (especially when pitted against each other) they’re not messing around when it comes to their dedication to their causes. While it’s much easier to sympathize with Poe in this instance, it should be noted that his twist on Holdo’s line “we are the spark that will light the fire that will restore the Republic” is a destructive statement. The shadows cast on his face and the way his eyes are turned down as he says this line are ominous as well, which should lead the audience to have some apprehension about what Poe wants. This is deliberate as it frames Poe not in looking to rebuild something that was but to break something that is. It’s directly in contrast with Rose’s “saving what we love” line as well. This could potentially be a foreshadowing for what’s to come, especially when it comes to the ways in which Poe and Hux might interact in the future.

Ego and Issues with Authority

The opening scene of The Last Jedi really sets up a lot, if you ask me. Not only do we get the introduction of Poe’s arc, we also get our first on-screen juxtaposition of Hux and Poe and we see how truly alike they are. Both of them are too busy smarting off to each other, being drawn into a pissing contest, and ignoring wiser officers to realize they’re both losing. Hux’s ego is bruised and as such he focuses more on Poe than he does the threat to the other Star Destroyer, wasting valuable time. Poe too is so focused on taking out a Star Destroyer that he ignores direct orders and does whatever he wants, being cocky enough to think he knows better than his boss. They’re too focused on messing with each other and winning, not in the long term, but in the short term, to be effective. Both are ego driven at this moment and because of it, they both suffer heavy losses.

Interestingly, though, is that they seem to mirror each other for the rest of the movie as well. Once the fight is over, Poe is reprimanded and slapped by Leia, then demoted. Hux is reprimanded by Snoke and thrown around and dragged across the floor. (Hux isn’t demoted, of course, but his harsher physical punishment probably had the same effect on him as Poe’s demotion did on him.) Poe’s superior is then taken out of commission and Poe then undermines her by going behind her back and arranging plans without her consent. Poe then stages a mutiny but cannot complete his plan because he’s thwarted. Hux also sees his superior taken out of commission (though on a much more permanent basis) and immediately undermines his new boss.

The fact that we do see Poe attempt a mutiny but we don’t see Hux attempt a coup could be possible foreshadowing for EP IX. It’s very possible that the way these two characters have mirrored each other so far is supposed to clue us in on what Hux may have planned for Supreme Leader Ren very shortly. Either way, it’s clear that both of these characters have issues with authority, especially when those authorities disagree with them. While Poe has experienced a character arc that could potentially change his view on how to fight, Hux has not and there is a lot of potential for more conflict between these two.

Why Are They Foils?

By making Hux and Poe so similar in background and temperament, the similarities between different sides of the war are highlighted. Now, obviously, there is a moral distinction to be made here. The First Order is an evil organization. They build weapons that destroy systems in the seconds. The Resistance, on the other hand, is a cobbled together group of people trying to stop the evil organization and they don’t have super weapons. This moral distinction is key because I don’t believe the intention is to make the two sides equal in terms of capacity for evil. Rather, the similarities between Hux and Poe might serve to show things we associate with “goodness” on the side of a conflict we agree with are the same things we associate with “badness” on the side of a conflict we don’t agree with. Poe and Hux both have a strong sense of conviction, they’re both ambitious and they both have a legacy of important they’re trying to live up to and surpass. Poe’s defiance of Holdo is divisive, to say the least, and it’s hard for us to accept that a character we’re used to seeing as a hero could have a plan that would go wrong and make them look bad. We expect that kind of defiance and outcome from an antagonist – in someone like Hux.

In my mind, the point of these two characters is to show that it’s not how you fight that’s really important, it’s why you fight. Both Hux and Poe were born into war and found themselves growing into another one. Both men want to destroy what the other is a part of. What will differentiate the two, however, is whether or not Poe will truly embrace the message of saving what you love rather than destroying what you hate. The key will be whether or not Poe can move past his ego and the legacy of war while Hux remains deeply entrenched in it. Based on the fact that Poe is a PoV character and he is on the more moral side, it’s likely he will be able to do this, and the foils will serve as contrasts to one another.