I’ve had a bee in my bonnet since this incident the other day, and I figure it’s probably time to get it out of my system.
Darkfic is not a new phenomenon. It’s as old as the hills. For as long as there have been fic writers, there have been fic writers using the medium to explore themes that are taboo in mainstream fiction. Torture and gore, death and destruction, rape and sexual abuse. Every author has their own motives and inspirations for the content they produce, and there’s no ‘average’ darkfic writer. But what I can tell you – anecdotally, from a full decade’s worth of experience drifting in and out of various darkfic communities – is that when you involve yourself with these authors, you start meeting survivors. Lots of survivors. In what I think it’s fair to call a statistically significant concentration.
For some, their survivor status is incidental to their controversial interests; for others of us, past trauma and mental illness are intrinsically tied to what we read and write. Darkfic can be a lifeline, a validation, a liberation, a profound and unbeatably intense catharsis for the shit we’ve got stored in our heads. Darkfic enclaves within fandom are places where we can air our darkest and most desperate fears and fantasies in a safe, supportive environment, in the company of others who remind us that we are not broken or defective just for wanting the things we want.
And here’s the thing: literally no one in these communities wants to force outsiders to join us. We recognise that our content is stuff that the majority of people don’t want to see, and we do our best to protect the rest of fandom from involuntary exposure by using appropriate trigger warnings. We don’t want to hurt anyone, we don’t want to ruin anyone’s innocence – we just want to be left alone to do our thing. But tumblr callout culture has taught people that “speaking out” against things they don’t like is cool and brave and socially progressive. It has created an environment where virtually the automatic response to distress, discomfort or personal offense is to look for a perpetrator, a culpable oppressive villain to whom the offended party can deliver a vicious “smackdown” while their friends look on and cheer.
I’m not going to argue just now about whether that’s ever an acceptable way to treat people. Regardless of anyone’s personal feelings on callout culture as a whole, there’s an intersection between darkfic and trauma survivors that you guys all need to understand before you go targeting darkfic authors as convenient representatives of everything you think is wrong with the world. So let me lay this out as simply and clearly as I can:
When you oppose darkfic because it “harms survivors”, you are talking directly over large crowds of survivors who will tell you they find darkfic to be a validating, healing experience.
When you claim that darkfic is self-destructive and unhealthy, you are privileging your personal beliefs over the lived experience of other people.
When you accuse darkfic authors of glorifying and supporting real-life abuse, you accuse survivors of glorifying and supporting their own abusers.
When you blame darkfic for supporting rape culture, you are making victims responsible for the actions of their oppressors.
When you set conditions around the creation and enjoyment of darkfic – aka “it’s only okay if you’re a survivor” – you create a culture of coercive disclosure, where survivors are expected to trade their right to privacy for the right to live free of harassment.
When you criticise darkfic authors for using survivor status as an “excuse”, you are locking us out of our own communities and denying our past traumas for the sake of a political argument.
If you are anti-darkfic, you are anti-survivor. I’m sick and tired of watching vulnerable members of my community get harassed and bullied by people who claim to be acting in the interests of survivors. I’m sick of being told that survivors like me aren’t survivors at all, that our very existence is toxic and harmful, that we have no right to speak and be heard on an issue that affects us so intimately.
Anti-darkfic fans, you need to pull back. You need to realise that your comfort and safety, while important, are not more important than the comfort and safety of other people. You need to understand that it is your responsibility to learn how to peacefully coexist alongside people who experience the world differently from you, even if their experiences make you unhappy or uncomfortable. You have no right to ask us to stop existing so that you can feel at ease. You have no right to demand that we prioritise the needs of some survivors over others. You don’t own fandom, and you have no right to dictate who does or doesn’t get to participate.
You are not brave heroes speaking out against the spread of moral degeneracy in fandom. You are bullies, deliberately and systematically targeting trauma survivors with your abusive tactics. It really is that simple. And it needs to stop.
WELL FUCKING PUT.
Addendum: coercive disclosure is not the only reason it’s a terrible idea to draw a line in the sand between survivors and non-survivors liking darkfic. Fiction is a way to explore various aspects of a theme or situation in a controlled, safe environment–including aspects that could never be explored in real life without harming real people. It’s a way to explore, dissect, understand, and rehearse traumas that could befall anyone. For those who’ve actually experienced something similar, it can help them process it, or be an outstretched hand and a voice saying “you aren’t alone; either I know that feel, or I can imagine having that feel if I put myself in your shoes.” For those who haven’t, it’s an outlet for anxiety, a mental preparation, a “what if?” and a “how might someone react to–?” And even the most twisted, fucked-up darkfic is usually an exercise in empathy: empathy for characters we already care about thrown into terrible situations, and also a space outside of actual RL horrors where we can take a deep breath and attempt the kind of radical empathy that lets us understand what drives people to do abhorrent things. As far as the first one goes, I certainly don’t think anyone should be compelled to partake if it distresses them, but I do think that actively discouraging and shaming people for trying to empathize with another’s suffering–even if they go about it badly or the execution is shoddy and distasteful–is utterly toxic behavior. As for the second, the kind that consists of trying to imagine your way into a perpetrator’s shoes: it may make you wildly uncomfortable, but understanding the reasons for a thing is among the best tools for recognizing and preventing real-world evil. Beyond that, dehumanization–even of villains, bullies, and abusers–is a dangerous impulse. No one’s required to empathize with the people who’ve hurt them, but making a fucking policy out of attacking everyone who tries only plants the seeds of further evil and abuse.
And we need these stories. Desperately. One of the reasons noncon/dubcon fic in particular has such a staggering variety of weird, fucked-up, iddy tropes and clumsy/insensitive/offensive executions is that we’re fucking marinating in rape culture and have very few scripts or outlets to talk about it. All of it. Even the ugly, unsavory parts, the impulses we know are wrong, the desires we hate or feel guilty about and can’t discuss without being accused of straight-up validating whatever heinous cultural messages planted them in our subconscious. Even the dumb, unrealistic power fantasies of fighting off rapists, taming rapists and making them love and respect you, walking away unaffected and being able to laugh it off as a wacky misadventure, being comforted by someone whose love (and/or healing cock) will magically fix everything. One person’s insensitive is another person’s escapism; one person’s offensive is another person’s “thank god, I’m not the only one broken enough to have that awful thought.” Fiction–particularly the communities that have formed around fanfiction–is one of the very few no-holds-barred places where we can Fucking Talk About It, without the pressure to speak only in hushed tones and behind closed doors where decent people won’t be exposed to it, or to uphold the image of a perfect model victim who never has ugly, unacceptable thoughts about the ugly mess left behind by an unspeakably ugly act. When you shame and police darkfic in fandom, you are taking that space away from the people who need it the most. You are telling them to their faces that they’re filthy, abnormal, tainted and contagious, and that they need to either shut the fuck up or keep it in the shame closet where it belongs instead of sharing it in public with other people who might understand. You are, in other words, doing the exact thing that’s tied with “I don’t believe you” for first place on the list of What Not To Say To A Survivor Opening Up About Their Abuse. Survivors aren’t the only ones with a tangle of conflicted thoughts, feelings, and neuroses about sexual violence and rape culture who benefit from exploring it in fiction, but you can be damn sure they’re a major constituency. The absolute last thing they need is some white-knight ‘anti’ bullying them into silence with concern-trolling about whether their “coping mechanisms” are “healthy” or whether they’re setting a sufficiently good and wholesome example for teh childrens.
The “only if you’re a survivor using it to cope!” bullshit is also noxious because fiction lets us handle difficult issues through several layers of distance and displacement, isolate particular aspects, transpose them into different but related situations, etc. Just because someone’s not a survivor of the exact thing they’re reading or writing about doesn’t mean they don’t have very real pain they’re trying to process. And again, empathy. I don’t give a shit what your sexual-assault history is; if you read my fucked-up Hydra Trash Party porn about Steve Rogers getting gang-raped by Crossbones & co and staggering away still shouting “FITE ME U PATHETIC ASSHOLES” even though he wants to die inside, and it hits you where you live, I’m fucking glad you found it. If I read your fucked-up Hydra Trash Party porn and hit a line that makes me feel like you’ve plucked something ugly and painful and private directly from my brain, frankly I’ll be even more impressed if it turns out you were extrapolating rather than writing from personal experience. And if your badwrong noncon porn is directly at odds with everything I’ve experienced re: rape and its aftermath? I don’t live inside your head, dude. I don’t know what you’re drawing on or what demons you’re exorcizing. I don’t even know whether you’re writing from firsthand experience that’s dramatically different from mine. All I know is that whoever your target audience is, it ain’t me.
One final note on noncon fic specifically: it works on the exact same principle as consensual nonconsent play IRL. No, the character(s) didn’t consent; neither did the persona being acted out by someone playing the victim in a con-noncon scene. The consent that distinguishes it from real-world violation isn’t between the characters in the fantasy; it’s between author and reader. The back button is the safeword. And in contrast to one of the dangers of IRL con-noncon play, it’s a safeword the author has zero power to override or ignore.
(b = mine)
Good post.
So I think it’s fair to say I have a dog in this race. I used to write darkfic for the Harry Potter fandom, and in fact one of the early bangs I was in was the HP darkfic big bang. Feels like it was a million years ago. The thing is, this debate was raging even then. Even back then, people were there to tell you what you can and can’t write, who should be able to write what, how far was too far. It drove me away from it to a certain extent, despite having made good friends. I had other reasons for leaving fandom, but the toxic environment around darkfic was a part of it.
I’ve inched back into writing darkfic for SPN. I’ve got a couple of really dark pieces up at the moment, for which the warnings are many. And here’s the thing: I’m not a survivor. If I have issues I’m working out, I’m not aware of them. But I do use fic to convey narrative as well as explore the emotions of the characters experiencing those things. I used my Handmaid’s Tale AU to tear up the A/B/O true mates trope. I used my demon Dean fic to explore how a character might be manipulated and groomed into doing something against his nature because of a love for someone that no longer exists. Hell, it’s not a darkfic, but I wrote A World As Yet Unseen because I wanted to really interrogate why disabilities in fic are so often magically cured at the end of a story, especially blindness.
This is what we do. We explore characters. Yes, some people are exploring because they have some personal trauma, or even for some people a dark side they’re well aware of, but that’s not true of everyone, nor should it be. We write what we write because we can’t not write it, because these things, however they’re born inside you, insist on being given form and set free. And we slap on a billion warnings because it isn’t intended to hurt or wound or mislead people. It’s called what it is, labeled unashamedly, not so that haters can find it, but so that those who need it or want it can find it, and so that those who don’t want it can steer clear. When you make people ashamed of tagging things appropriately, you will stumble into those things inappropriately.
I am immensely proud that there are people who read my fic who need it. To insist I can’t write these stories because I’m not traumatized myself would deprive them of those stories. Most readers don’t leave comments for me because their reasons for reading are private. Some people I’m sure click back having realized it’s not for them. Finally, some people are creeping back in just to say ‘This was really hot, and I feel guilty for loving it so much’. I get less signed in kudos and comments for darkfic, because fandom has made people ashamed of it; a dirty little habit. But for the people who come to me and say ‘This story spoke to me’ or ‘this story was just what I needed today’–why is that of less value than if I’d written a fluffy romance and scratched someone’s perfectly morally unambiguous itch?
The most genuine and emotional comments I’ve ever received have been on darkfics. They strike an emotional chord with readers reliably because of the intensity of emotions portrayed. I had a commenter about this time last year who told me that the way I described Castiel’s relationship with emotions, his inability to label the complexity of these things he barely understood, made them feel like I was speaking just to them, that they could identify themselves within those descriptions. I don’t have difficulty with labeling my emotions, but I described it, and it touched another person. It meant so much to them that they left me comments saying so.
Fiction – not just fanfiction – has supreme power like that. And really at the end of the day (as some additions to this post have added) you do not need to have experienced a thing to empathize with it. You can teach yourself about it, and approach the topic respectfully. Just like Jeff Lindsay didn’t have to kill people to write the Dexter series, and Anthony Horowitz isn’t actually a spy.
And some people are going to do a crappy job, but where do you get off judging them for that? People have to learn. God knows my Harry Potter darkfic is unbearable to my mature eyes, but it meant enough to enough readers at the time and in the years since that it as much as belongs to them as it does to me, and judging myself for it – removing it – would be judging them. You do not get to judge people on quality, because if so we wouldn’t have fanfic at all, because mainstream culture would have just waved fanfiction off as teenagers drivel years ago. Fanfiction is done. It’s problematic. Delete it all. After all, it’s not REAL writing amirite?
So look. I could get flak for my honesty here. Since I’m not untangling some dark place inside myself, people can obviously say whatever they like to me without feeling any guilt that they’re attacking someone vulnerable. Go for it, I’m handy with the block function. But I will stand by my belief that darkfic is a service to its community. You don’t need to have any part of it, you can pretend it doesn’t exist, but when you bully darkfic creators you destroy people, both writers and readers. In essence, you rob them of connection with fandom when you drive darkfic underground, because the people who need it (or hell, just want it) can’t find it, or worse, they don’t feel SAFE in fandom, don’t feel as though they have a place to exist. I find it ironic that the people who claim to want fandom to be a safe space in the purist moral sense are the same ones who want to make other people feel shitty and unwanted.
If you earn the trust of a darkfic reader, they will tell you what the genre means to them. They will tell you what specific fics mean to them, or a sentence, or they’ll tell you all about a single author who really gets them. Those moments of trust from my readers always let me know that I’m doing it right, so thank you to all those people, I am always grateful for your input and feedback.
I wonder if it comes from the same place that glorifies Dark Side stuff and has resulted in Hux/Kylo Ren having more almost double the number of fics as Finn/Poe on AO3? Like, Star Wars fans as a group – forget about individuals here – seem to be a more racist, misogynistic crowd than many others.
And the frequency with which I see merch for the dark side EVERYWHERE has hit the point it makes me profoundly uncomfortable both as a consumer and as a mom. Like…why would I want to dress my kid as a Stormtrooper?? WTF kind of message is that???? Yet everyone acts like this is totally normal? The whole thing is so weird to me, tbh. And you know I like Star Wars, but something is off in all this. Like the anti-Nazi message got lost somewhere along the way and it’s instead become something of a haven for white supremacists. And again it’s far from everyone but we all know it doesn’t take more than a small percentage to be really awful people for it to really make a general impact.
Both actresses deserve better.
Okay. I’m gonna try to do my best with this because it’s actually really complex. The Star Wars fandom isn’t just one fandom, not really. Being as big and as multi-media as it is and with the old EU and the new EU, no two SW fans are the same and no two clusters of fans are going to focus on the same things. This is a fandom that spreads across decades and multiple platforms. It’s really hard to get a read on the demographics because of that. SW tumblr, for example, skews female but SW reddit skews male and both have very different reasons for acting and reacting the way that they do, regardless of whether or not the results tend to wind up the same.
A huge part of the issue, from what I’ve seen, doesn’t have much to do with Ky/uxers. From what I’ve experienced, there’s extra pressure on those shippers to “properly demonize their faves” and to get upset when others who happen to be fans of either Kylo or Hux don’t seem to be doing the same thing. I do think there’s an element of “two white dudes to ship” that does contribute to the popularity (because it is the most popular ST ship on Ao3). In that respect, I do think that there’s an issue. However, there is a very loud and aggressive contingent of fans that don’t appreciate people who write F/nnP0e the wrong way. There is a very aggressive contingent of fans who will harass multishippers and refuse to interact with certain fans just on the basis of who their faves are and what they ship, to the point of cutting folks off from enjoying art, often because of fear. The fandom itself can and does sour folks from enjoying certain ships and characters. Now, of course I don’t doubt that there are certain implicit biases some people have that lead them to like ky/ux over f/nnp0e and that’s definitely an issue but I’m hesitant to say that that’s the whole problem, just from the way I’ve seen folks act.
To be completely honest with you, I think there’s two main factions that cause a lot of strife for this particular trilogy. One is on the side of “star wars is the most progressive thing to ever progressive and Rose Tico is anti black because she tazzed Finn and everyone who likes Kylo is a nazi” and the “star wars has been cucked by the sjws and it’s not cool anymore because Rey’s a mary sue”. The end result is the same, unfortunately. Both factions create this toxic environment where it’s okay to harass people or suicide bait them or just be a huge monster because those folks over there are wrong and need to be punished. Granted, the tumblr faction seems to focus more on individuals than the reddit faction (for lack of a better term) does but the vocal minority is very vocal and cruel.
And I do think the fandom as a whole tends to be more racist and misogynistic. The shit leveled at KMT is abhorrent. The shit I’ve seen leveled at Kathleen Kennedy is abhorrent. I’ve seen black r3ylos called slurs. I’ve seen jewish r3ylos called antisemitic slurs. And I’ve seen those things justified as either “criticism” or totally justified for some ass-backward reason or another. The scary thing, to me, is that the people who claim to be against abuse and racism and misogyny are all for it when it’s up against someone they don’t like. The people who are fine with using racist and misogynist language against others while claiming to be against those things are people I find more on tumblr than anything else.
As far as the darkside and all that goes, I honestly don’t know. I understand your concerns. I’m just very hesitant to blame the franchise for making the bad guys look cool because… well… that’s kind of the point. You want your bad guys to be iconic and you want to sell toys. If you have a group of kids playing Star Wars in the backyard, not everyone is going to be playing Luke. I do get the fact that the villains are nazi-coded is uncomfortable and troubling, though. I’m hoping that it will vary when the ST is done and they move on to whatever the next thing is. Maybe then we’ll get bounty hunters or something else. Maybe there is a correlation there, but I’d have to take a closer look at all that crap and I really don’t want to.
When TFA came out I wasn’t super into Star Wars. I was, however, much more active in certain circles online, like the refutation of anti-feminism and the affirmation of feminism. Anti-feminists latched on to SW hard. It was the biggest tragedy in the world because their precious childhood was being ruined by women and black men and their villains weren’t even cool anymore (too feminine was the argument). If you’ve been watching that from g@mer g@te to present, you’ll see how the rage of fanboys has morphed into alt-right sympathy or support. That’s troubling as fuck. According to this article I read about a week ago, the same fans who took credit for attempting to tank The Last Jedi’s Rotten Tomatoes score also tried it with Black Panther. I personally think that the unchallenged racism, sexism, ect ect has been given a fertile ground to grow in. There’s an element of ownership that combines with the toxicity that’s already there to create a stew of disgusting and potentially dangerous vitriol.
Just from what I’ve seen and experienced, it comes on two fronts. I can’t honestly say which is worse, though. I just know that there’s a mountain of shit.
And you’re right. The actresses deserve better.
And you know, maybe some of this is my responsibility, too. I don’t reblog this stuff. I’ve been holding off because I really don’t know anyone in the SW fandom at this point and I feel like throwing that kind of stuff on my dash might get overly negative, but maybe I should. I’ve been struggling with what to say and when for weeks, but maybe this is my breaking point.
Everyone 🙂 Please 🙂 Take 🙂 A Look 🙂 At 🙂 These 🙂 Posts🙂
Even if you are not into discourse, I want everyone to see and condemn the racial misogyny of these posts. This is what fandom racism and sexism often looks like.
Please, don’t be fooled by any of the social justice rhetoric. The only thing that is racist and misogynistic is the degradation of Finn’s character to that of a race token who must be infantilized, undeveloped and valued most strongly only with either white or male characters, the indictment of Rose’s personality as not befitting of the docile Oriental woman, and the mental gymnastics required to short circuit an entire storyline to institutional racism…because of shipping and that’s fucking it.
Anti Rose discourse is so ridiculous and it makes me glad my sister isn’t on Tumblr. Her name is Rose and she’s Asian too, and she was so excited to see an Asian heroine with her name in the Star Wars franchise. Rose is a lot like my sister, strong and fiercely independent and not afraid of anything. It’s great that she has a heroine she can connect with like that and it really sucks to see people reduce Rose to an ‘unworthy’ love interest for Finn.
I agree that a lot of what people say against Rose and against ships she might be a part of are extremely racist and full of misogyny (and homophobia, etc.). People who do really like her character and people who like ships with her in them don’t seem to be more racist than the rest of the fanbase, and a lot of the time are less racist. Even if it did have the problems people say, it would still be fine to ship, and while people’s fan events are their own, I think restrictions on them make them limiting and less accessible, especially when tagging would cover most concerns people have, and tagging rule could be implemented.
That said, I found Rose’s character as written extremely racist and stereotypical, I found Finn’s character racist and stereotypical, and I found their canon relationship to be very much viewed through a white (supremacist) lens. A lot of people found these things to be true, and treading carefully with these topics is always going to be necessarily when writing within a white supremacist world (which we all live in). I don’t think it’s fair to say that, just because some people overreach or react badly to the criticisms, there’s nothing racist in the portrayal of either of the characters or their relationship. It’s no reason to dislike either of the characters and it’s no reason to dislike the ship (and people who are vocal about their dislike for those things are frequently horrible), but the problems are still there, and something interesting to address through meta, discussion, fic, art, or whatever people want to produce.
Things don’t have to be perfect to be defensible, and I feel like there’s too much of a push to read things the other way; “I can like whatever I want” lately seems to be becoming “no one can say anything bad about something I like.”
Yes…a story about a black man and brown woman taking on the military-industrial complex and a fascist organization is extremely racist. Yes that makes sense I see.
This person jumped on my post and blocked me right after replying and so I thought I’d post their reply here and respond to it since it’s been a while since I’ve seen all the “reasons” why Finn and Rose were “racist”.
1. Your first point about a Black man being the least threatening hero of color to a white audience makes no sense and moreover contradicts your later points about the threatening possibility of Black male sexuality needing to be subdued by directing it toward a non-white woman.
2. These characterizations of Finn are non-existent in the movie. Finn is NOT portrayed as an object of suspicion except when he is undercover because y’know, he’s on a secret mission. And even then he mostly slips under the radar until a certain point.
3. At no point do I see any of the characters whitesplaining or otherwise talking down to Finn unless you are talking about Phasma. John Boyega is on record saying that he plays Finn as an extrovert and the fact that you are mischaracterizing that as fumbling says more about the racialized lens you are forcing onto him than it does about the characterization or story. Also Idk if you noticed but um he’s a defector that starts the movie waking up from a coma in a place he’s never been, he better be wondering what’s going on.
4. There story is never framed as a side story. It constituted the main drama and action of the Resistance story line and was focused squarely on developing it’s characters and was crucial to reiterating the theme of TLJ – failure is important, collaboration is what will save the day.
5. “her entire motivation is fridging a woc” ??? Do you know what words mean?
6. The fact that Finn and Rose are portrayed as characters with humble origins is exactly what makes their narrative so powerful. How thick can you be to see marginalized folks playing marginalized folks who represent an insurgency from below that threatens the powers that be as racist? If anything that is what anti-racist work dreams about. I’m not sure what you’re problem here is? That they weren’t depicted as privileged people? With their destinies laid out before them by right of birth? In other words you wanted them to be…whiter?
7. Your assessment of Asian female representation is waaaaaay off. Asian women are frequently hypersexualized and fetishized and at no point is the White Male Gaze catered to with Rose. In fact they way she is presented is a noticeable subversion of that – unisex clothing, a ‘masculine’ job, not rail thin and an assertive personality.
8. In order for Finn to be ‘neutered’ by an Asian woman you’d have to believe that the black male character was already being sexualized in a particular way.
9. Framing Rose as an obstacle to Rey and as an ancillary to Finn, something the story never demonstrably does, is racial misogyny which you should know by if you read and subsequently agreed with my original post.
10. Get your symbolism right – the original Empire were the ones who were meant to represent the US in Vietnam while the rebels were meant to echo the guerrilla resistance. Rose is explicitly stated to be from a mining colony and is played by a Vietnamese woman.
11. Interracial representation in media is often reduced to a black/white affair, with the white person often serving as the relatable and assuring element. Your diagnosis of ‘ofc they havge to pair off the minorities’ makes no sense in light of this history and I suspect is an attempt to recenter the white woman.
12. The stuff about Nazi-coded villains has nothing to do with my post, idk why you brought that up.
You talked and talked endlessly about stereotypes – yet I see not a single stereotype articulated here. Again, do you know what words mean? You claimed at first to agree that some people go overboard – now I see that what you really mean is that people are not being polite and PC enough since you are reiterating many of the tired racism and racial misogyny that you claim to refute (and some novel things too, I’ll give you that…”fridging a woc” wtf).
This person can say they hate seeing finn with a woc and wants finn be with a white woman
You know, I’d respect people a lot more if they just came out and said they didn’t like certain pairings instead of trying to pretend the pairings they find objectionable are racist for some reason. But I guess that would expose their objections as petty opinions and not undeniable facts… or something.
Thanks! 😊 The discussion specifically started between the shipping of Deadpool and Tom Holland’s Spiderman. So I guess the Problematic Thing initially started as age differences in relationships. It’s kind of expanded from there. I’m just trying to say that fiction shouldn’t be policed, and the idea that it “affects reality” isn’t a good reason to control content. Thanks for the blog rec, I’ll check it out!
I’m sorry it’s taken me so long, anon. I’ve been super busy this week and I haven’t really had the time to actually sit down and find things for you. I hope that this helps, though.
Cool! Gotcha! (I’m sorry I’m going to be presumptuous and assume you’re American for this one b/c I know American legal stuff and I’m gonna be throwing some supreme court stuff at you.)
So it’s kind of tough to actually give you sources on this topic. A lot of what I’ve found revolves around “media” in general and not fiction specifically. On top of that, things that do study specific media tend to zero in on specific topics (violent video games, romance novels with abusive or borderline abusive male leads, ect) so it’s difficult to actually approach this holistically. Fanfiction on it’s own isn’t really studied as much as I feel it should be, either, so we don’t actually have much in terms of how Problematic topics in fanfic affect those who read them. We don’t actually know how and what about fanfic might influence readers, or in what way, and all we really have at this point in anecdotal evidence which doesn’t really help if you want real sources.
I will say, as just a bit of advice, if you’re arguing with folks on tumblr there’s probably nothing you can say to them that will change their minds if they already have a strong opinion. It doesn’t matter what ship it is, how you write it, or why you write it, if someone is really determined that some kinds of fiction just shouldn’t exist and they’re willing to throw around the “affects reality” argument in order to convince you you’re wrong, they don’t care. A lot of the arguments on tumblr aren’t actually about principles, they’re about ship wars and there’s not a damn thing you can do when it comes to someone’s OTP. It’s worth keeping in mind, too, that anti-censorship is more of a principle than anything else.
First, normalization. If you don’t have a definition of normalization already, here’s a link to the wikipedia article that gives a brief definition of what the term means in a sociological context. It’s important to note, too, that normalization isn’t something that’s done through just one channel, nor is it completely the same in every group that has it’s own culture. (For certain groups of fans it’s considered “normal” to talk about sex and sexuality as honestly and openly as one wants to. This isn’t necessarily “normal” for other groups in other contexts, however.) Normalization is a process.
Second, fiction in general can contribute to normalization of any given thing but it’s not the sole factor. It’s difficult to find sources on this that aren’t either behind a pay wall or very small sample-size wise for just plan fiction. This link might be helpful in illustrating that, while there could be a link between violent media and aggressive behavior, the extent to which violent media actually causes violent behavior is unknown and possibly more complex than we’re equipped to study currently. It also has references to other things that might be helpful to read. Here’s an article on psychology today about the lack of a link between violent video games and violence IRL. Here’s a HuffPo article specifically about whether or not pornography leads to sexual violence (the answer is no according to the article and the study they cite). Because let’s be honest, the folks you’re going to run into are often more concerned about the sexual content of the fanfic and fiction they’re railing against. This article talks about the potential reason we’re drawn to violent media; we like the thrill without the danger.
That psych today article on violent video games includes reference to a Supreme Court decision where the court struck down a California law that barred the sale and rental of violent video games to anyone under 18. I suggest you read the majority opinion on that case because it specifically deals with whether or not limitations should be put on whether or not children should be allowed access to violent media. I would also take a look at the US obscenity laws here . Obscenity laws are more helpful for arguing principles than they are for the normalization arguments because that third clause in the test for whether a piece violates US law specifically takes into account literary, artistic, and political merit. This means that we can often find things absolutely repugnant, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist. These laws make the standard in favor of expression and not disgust.
So now here’s the tricky thing – fiction can and does impact the real world. We can be inspired by art to make changes in our world. Seeing someone who looks like you or struggles with the same issues as you do in a fictional world can mean a lot for a lot of people. It can be inspiring or completely disheartening. Fiction can make us more empathetic, too. So yes, fiction does have an impact on us. I mean, we’ve only been telling ourselves stories for as long as we’ve been human so I don’t think it can be stated enough that it’s really a part of who we are as a species. It shapes us and we shape it. The question in my mind, though, is whether art reflects life or life reflects art. I’m of the opinion that it’s both, but we don’t tend to write or depict “problematic” things in our art out of nowhere. A lot of the things folks get bent out of shape about in fanfic happens in real life and they’re worried that somehow fic is going to make it seem “okay” if it’s a) not properly demonized or b) written about at all. (No one really complains that depicting dragons razing villages is going to cause more arson, you know?) However, the evidence doesn’t really seem to support the idea that depicting abnormal or immoral things will encourage abnormal or immoral behavior.
I hope this helped, anon. And I hope you get many hours of enjoyment out of spideypool! Sorry for taking so long, lol.
Yes exactly. And for some reason it also splits a bit for me? I have written serial killer!Dean. His relationship with Cas is not by any means healthy. It’s manipulative and coercive. But I make it clear from the beginning that Dean doesn’t know better and can’t fully grasp that what he’s doing is wrong and he’s mentally ill. Of course that’s no excuse. It’s still a terribly unhealthy relationship especially when he stalks Cas. For some reason that for me is fine?
I wonder if it’s almost a context thing? Because like, Angel Lust is set in a ‘verse where Jimmy and Sam are both serial killers and they don’t really have any issue with actually murdering people. No one in that ‘verse is exactly stable, but I think b/c I’m writing it with the intent to shock, horrify, disgust, and explore these darker things that I’m able to do it. Is it like that with you? Like you mentioned serial killer!Dean and those kinds of AUs usually have certain reader expectations and conventions, so does that change the ability to write it?
I only wonder b/c if I were to try to present abuse in an AU that turned out happy I don’t think I could.
Ah that makes perfect sense! With dark!fic, going in you know there won’t be a happy or even somewhat functional ending and what is a happy ending is still miserable. In my fic, it boils down to a few options and the best is that Cas leaves Dean, gets to safety, recovers, and Dean ends up in prison. They’re both hurt and have their lives destroyed.
I also think that not trying to validate it and trying to make it sympathetic in a dismissive way plays a part too. If the other person’s trauma is dismissed or the behavior is excused, that makes me squick away from it
Oh totally! If you’re reading dark!fic you should probably be aware that it’s not really going to be “happy”. And even “happy” endings are pretty twisted most of the time. (I actually don’t mind a twisted ending if it’s pulled off well. I read a fic a while back where one character was a siren and essentially forced the other into captivity by speaking. It left me with a sinking feeling in my gut and I really enjoyed that because it was horrifying It wasn’t supposed to be a “good” ending and I loved it.) But yeah, even the best option for your fic is devastating.
Also, I agree with you on the invalidation and excuse part. There’s a huge difference between an explanation for behavior and an excuse for behavior. Explanations can make a reader sympathetic towards a character, but it doesn’t make their actions okay. I would like to think most folks understand that, but I’m not sure. And I generally just don’t like when the trauma of one character is brushed off by another.
That sounds like a fic I would enjoy. I love that dark twisting feeling in your gut that would cause. Probably why I love dark!fic and horror so much *lol*. I remember reading a wincestiel fic where the boys were serial killers and killed Jimmy, kidnapped Cas, and they all died. For that story, it fit. There was no one way out other than things getting worse and worse until it suddenly came to a complete halt.
I always wonder about that too. Am I making a character too sympathetic? Can people tell what I’m trying to do with the direction I’m taking it? And especially with what I’m doing with Dean, can the reader pick up he’s slipping and he’s going to start to spiral soon?
lol. I used to watch a buttload of Tales from the Crypt, Twilight Zone, and Tales from the Darkside as a kid, so I love those “and then suddenly everything is awful” twists in horror and suspense. I’ll eat them up. Also that wincestiel fic sounds fun. Do you have the link or remember what it was called? I think it’d be fun to read.
Creating villains with some sympathy but not too much is always tricky imo. I’m one of those people who really enjoys sympathetic villains and redemption though, so it’s an issue for me. There are villains I want to see get eaten by sharks or whatever, but I do tend to pull for the bad guys. I guess they just resonate more with me. Sometimes though, I think it’s fun to keep the reader in suspense. One of those “will they or won’t they” kind of things but it’s will they or won’t they get worse. But I don’t really write a lot of characters that ride moral lines. I’m trying to with my Peacemaker ‘verse, but it’s kind of difficult. I do hope your readers are understanding what you’re doing with Dean, though.
Pedophilia is bad should not be a radical statement.
No really, please reblog this if you can, because this site in general, but fandom spaces especially bad for this, to the point where people are genuinely afraid of harassment they may face for saying ‘Pedophilia is a bad thing and you probably should not encourage it’ or for calling it what it is. Fandom spaces are also especially bad for screaming about how it’s ‘just fiction’ when we know damn well that fiction impacts reality.
Actual, real-life pedophilia is bad. People dealing with their personal pain by writing about it, in a fictional setting where tags and opt-in measures allow others to avoid it, are fine; in fact, a very effective way of working through one’s issues. Oversimplifying the process from ‘pedophilia is bad’ to ‘all people who write fiction about it are bad’ is policing in its worst form.
Actually, trauma survivor here, these people are in fact still furthering the normalization of the trauma they are working through, while also actively hurting other survivors!
If you feel the need to write it to process it, I understand that completely. In fact I’ve DONE that as a part of processing my own trauma in the past! However, you do not get to publish it into public spheres, including online, where all it will do is hurt other people. Likewise, this form of trauma processing is not, in fact, helping you!
These people include other survivors who may have been trying to avoid it and were unable to, people who are being groomed for abuse, people who are already being abused, and do not recognize that abuse for what it is, and the person writing it (assuming they ARE in fact a trauma survivor, because the vast majority of the people shipping siblings, minor/adult relations, and other abuses, are not in fact survivors of this. They just get their jollies off to it!).
Likewise, this is not, in fact, a coping mechanism, and it is not fine. This is retraumatization and self harm in many cases, being written off as ‘coping’. When you publish that, particularly the people who are writing it as ‘romance’, you hurt other survivors. In fact it’s predominantly survivors calling this shit out.
When you have a dozen people telling you ‘if you need to process it through these means, you cannot publish it because this is normalizing it and hurting all of us and people who will be hurt by it’, then you need to recognize that what you are doing is hurting someone and then saying “I’M JUST COPING!!!” which makes you an abusive piece of shit.
Now, consider the fact that you essentially just said “pedophilia is bad BUT FICTION IS OKAY!! FICTIONAL PEDOPHILIA IS ALWAYS FINE AND EFFECTIVE FOR HELPING PEOPLE SO YOU CAN’T CALL ANYONE OUT ON IT EVER!! YOU’RE POLICING COPING!!!”
Like, no. Most of those people writing hebdophilia, abuse, incest, and pedophilia fics on AO3 in some fandoms are NOT coping with a goddamned thing and pretending they are and saying ‘buuuuut fictional pedophilia/hebdophilia/abuse should never be policed!!’ is only going to create MORE victims. (like, I am in one of these fandoms. The people shipping the 25year old with the 14-17 year olds are not ‘coping’, they are fetishizing. Their argument is not ‘It’s my coping mechanism’ it’s ‘but it’s just fiction!!’).
And yes, coping SHOULD be policed. If you are hurting others, normalizing abuse, and retraumatizing/hurting yourself, it’s a bad way to cope, and isn’t coping but self harm, and you need to let it go and find something healthier. You should be helped through this process, definitely, but you should also be working on it, particularly if your ‘coping’ is being read by actual pedophiles, attracting them to your work.
Yes, changing how you cope can be hard, but it is hardly impossible, and acting like people using these things to cope should be allowed to without ever being challenged in that is actively preventing their recovery too. It was when I gave up self harming and found better ways to deal with stress (baking, video games, a long bath, a bad movie, a favourite comedy show) that I began to heal and recover.
I was hardly perfect, it was hard work, but if you actually care about survivors you should consider listening to us when we say that what you’re talking about still hurts us, doesn’t help us work through our trauma, and is not being primarily produced for or by us and therefore continues the normalization of the abuses we faced while failing to display healthy relationships and thus draws in more future victims who do not know the difference between ‘healthy’ and ‘abusive’ due to the excessive normalization both in fanfiction and in published fiction and other media, and society at large encouraging hebdophilia already especially.
Also listen to us when we say we are tired of our abuse being fetishized for the consumption of others, particularly by people who are writing/drawing it and have never been in that situation themselves, and they and their readers ignoring us saying these things. As these people are often also fetishizing mlm and wlw relationships we’re especially tired that they are portraying us as hebdophiles and pedophiles when we’re already accused of this by the outside world too.
First, I think that unless you’re a licensed mental health professional you have no business telling anyone how bad their therapist approved coping methods are. I’ll get into why I think that’s so insidious in a little bit.
Second, I think that you can write absolutely anything fictional AND publish it no matter how vile or disturbing the content is.
Third, I think our lemon friend here is slippery and has gone from “this thing we all agree is bad is bad” to “all these things that make me uncomfortable are bad and don’t you dare publish them ever”. And I think that is really harmful.
Alright. Let me break this down a little more and refute some shit.
First of all, the mental health thing. How dare you? How dare you tell people who are survivors just trying to get by that the coping methods they’ve found or have been offered to them by a therapist are bad for them. Do you have any proof that this coping method literally helps no one? I mean actual studies and research, not individual testimony. No? Didn’t think so, because it’s not true. This is argumentum ad populum. If a bunch of people say it, it must be true! No, no it’s not. A bunch of people say that the earth is flat and that’s bullshit, too.
Here’s the thing – writing about trauma is hard. It’s painful. It kinda sucks sometimes. Last year I wrote the aftermath of a car wreck and I had to keep getting up and walking around my kitchen because even though it was very brief and not very detailed, it struck a nerve. It was tough to do, but you know what? I felt better after I did it. I was able to process my own feelings a little better, and in the end, I was proud of myself for doing it. But here’s the thing, you say that we’re not allowed to share that with other people and I have to ask why. When I first talked to my therapist about writing my pain out (she suggested it, by the way) she wanted me to share it when I finished. She wanted me to either share it with her or in a small group or even online because a very important part of the process for me is to be heard. I need people to hear me. I need people to believe me. I need, after years of being gaslighted and hiding away in the corners of my own mind, for people to witness me. And a great way to do that is to share the work I’ve written, in a way that makes me comfortable, in a place where there are safeguards so that others who might not want to see it don’t have to. For me, that means content warnings all over the place and posting under a cut if we’re talking tumblr.
And you know, the idea that work that deals with sensitive topics can only hurt people is false anyway. I’ve been triggered by some fiction. It was properly tagged but I read it anyway, thinking I was in an okay state of mind but I wasn’t and it brought up some icky intrusive memories. And, you know, that sucked. I lost a lot of sleep over that and had myself a panic attack. But you know what? I survived. I had tools at my disposal to calm down, to center myself, and to relax. But I’m not mad at the author for writing that stuff. I’m not mad at them for sharing it, either. I’m mad at the person who did the things that caused me to be traumatized. And, you know, I have hope that they way the particular topic that triggered me was addressed might’ve helped someone. The whole scene that freaked me out was a character realizing they’d been abused and if that helps just one person understand what happened to them wasn’t okay, I’m over the moon happy for it. I’ve had lots of friends (all who write darkfic) tell me that they’ve had comments from people who thank them for allowing them to understand what happened to them and how it wasn’t okay. Hell, I personally have learned what the hell gaslighting looks like because of fanfic and that’s helped me understand how it was done to me!
And I know, the examples I gave were car crash related and not CSA but you know what? The attitude and impression you give off isn’t good for survivors. I don’t have to share anymore than I already have about the shit I’ve been through or the crap other people have done to me, so I won’t. I don’t want to use my abuse as some kind of instant credentials. Darkfic (aka cope shipping) can help a lot of people. It doesn’t help everyone, though, and you know what, that’s okay too! A little too much dark stuff can be bad for people (like me) and it’s about knowing your limits and knowing when to take a step back and when to not engage. But, I’m sorry, I really really hate the idea that cope shipping or writing darkfic or writing The Bad Thing is somehow bad in and of itself. It breeds a deep shame in people, one I’ve had to beat back with a stick so that I’m okay with expressing myself to people who will actually care. I don’t want survivors to feel like writing about their abuse in a fictionalized way is a bad thing. I don’t want survivors to feel guilty about sharing their experiences with others, no matter how they chose to do it. We deal with enough guilt and shame and blame already, we don’t need to put more of it on ourselves.
Second, the fiction thing. I believe that there is nothing you can’t write about. I’m serious, too. I’m so over the moral panic over what people are reading and writing. I love torture porn horror movies. Saw 6 is one of my favorites, and it’s gorey and bloody and completely contradictory to the whole “save yourself by saving others and changing your ways” kinda message the other movies had. But I love it because it’s creative and gory and sometimes I just wanna be a little grossed out. I’ve read so much rape, molestation, genocide, torture, false imprisonment, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-semitism, and murder in books. A few years back I read a book called The Ministry of Special Cases which was so disturbing I couldn’t sleep for two nights. And the really disturbing thing was that the book was a fictionalized way of bringing attention to shit that really happened in Argentina. None of the fiction I’ve been exposed to has turned me into a monster. None of the objectively terrible crap I’ve enjoyed in fiction has made me a bad person. That’s because it’s fiction and I knew right from wrong before I started reading the books and watching the movies. I know that murder and torture aren’t okay and if I really saw someone being murdered and/or tortured I would probably cry and throw up, but in fiction it’s fine.
Fiction exists for so many reasons. Sometimes it’s there to titillate, sometimes it’s to gross you out. Sometimes fiction is there to give you a world you might like to escape to and other times it’s to give you a world you’d want to escape from. Fiction is catharsis and hope and despair and repulsion and love and lies and death and rebirth. But, most importantly, it’s not real. Fiction is made up. Nothing is really happening here, other than the reader is sitting and moving their eyes across a page or staring at a screen. Can fiction affect people though? Sure! It absolutely can! But it’s not a case of monkey-see-monkey-do. Humans have critical thinking skills and we don’t just imitate what we see in fiction because we think it’s fun or hot. If you’ve ever seen a work of “romanticized noncon” or “romanticized incest” and you were grossed out or repulsed by it, you’ve proven my point for me. We don’t automatically see a thing that we know is bad and suddenly go “you know, maybe I’ve been wrong” because it hasn’t been painted in a bad light. Children, too, are a lot smarter than people seem to give them credit for. Children know the difference between fantasy and reality. Adults do too, unless they’re having mental issues and then that’s a separate issues I don’t want to get into here.
Now, I know it’s kind of uncomfortable for some people, but the fact of the matter is is that people have some kinks and fantasies that are taboo. Some people have rape fantasies, and you know what? That’s perfectly okay. There’s nothing wrong with having a rape fantasy. It does not make you a rapist or “damaged”. And some people would like to express those fantasies either in a safe and consensual way with a partner or with fiction. That’s 100% okay. The thing is, like I said before, when reading, the only thing that’s really happening is that the reader is moving their eyes across a page. No one is actually being raped. No one is actually a rapist. Can it trigger discomfort in some readers if the rape is romanticized? Yes. Can it trigger bad memories and panic attacks in some readers? Yes. Does that mean that that piece of fiction should not exist? No. It does not. Sorrynotsorry, the fiction can still exist and I think it should. It’s a separate issue, really, but I don’t think anyone should feel shame about having fantasies that are consensual (like consensual non-consent is). I don’t want people feeling damaged or gross. That helps no one.
And before this argument comes up, no pedophilia is not a kink. Pedophilia is a mental issue and if anyone is having thoughts about kids of attraction to kids (real kids) they should seek help. There is help available and it should be addressed. That’s as much as I’m willing to say on the topic, but again, if someone wants to depict that in fiction I support them, too.
Look, I get the disgust over heavy topics that are written as titillation. I really do understand it. But I don’t agree that it’s always retraumatization and self-harm. I don’t agree that it should be policed. I don’t agree that if you’re not writing it “the right way” you’re bad and not really a survivor. Seriously, fuck that. I can’t stand no-true-Scotsman’s and that’s what that is. If you don’t write or ship it the “right way” you’re not a survivor – fuck that. Every person is different. Every shipper is different. We all write things for different reasons and sometimes some ships are better suited to work through issues that might not even really be trauma but is still something that bothers the author. Just because someone isn’t a victim or survivor doesn’t mean they’re barred from writing The Bad Thing. I hate this reductionist way of thinking. It started as “you’re only allowed if you cope ship” then it was “you can only cope ship if you’re specifically affected by the issues you’re writing personally” and now it’s “nope! No cope shipping allowed”. Nope, screw all of that. You’re allowed to write it. You’re allowed to write whatever the fuck you want. Now, this is a separate issue, (again) but I also think we’re allowed to talk about The Bad Things in fic. I think we’re allowed to say “hey, this thing here? That’s rape if it were to happen in real life and rape isn’t okay.” or “this is abuse if it happened IRL” or “this is sexist and here’s why”. BUT I think it can be done without attacking the authors and making them defensive so that they won’t listen. There’s a way to discuss things with people if you think they’re not taking it seriously, but you know what? If their response is “yeah I know, I just don’t care” or “yeah, I know, that’s why I tagged it like I did” then your job is done. It’s over. Move on and do something else. (ALSO, TAGS ON A FIC ARE THERE BECAUSE THE AUTHOR KNOWS WHAT THEY’RE WRITING. IF IT’S LABELED “ABUSE” IT’S BECAUSE THE AUTHOR KNOWS THEY ARE DEPICTING ABUSE NO MATTER HOW IT’S WRITTEN IN THE NARRATIVE.)
Fandom is a really cool space because we can always have discussions about the implications of our works and how we come across with what we’re trying to say. So, you know, we can have actual fruitful discussions about what abuse is and what it looks like while also depicting it and all the complicated things that go along with being a abuse survivor (like still loving your abuser, thinking you deserved it, guilt, shame, reluctance to talk to others, fear ect.). We don’t have to make every work of fiction perfect or wonderful or an outright condemnation of The Bad Thing because sometimes we’re still working on it. Sometimes we just need to say something and throw it out there.
Lastly, the more I think about this, the more insulted I am. OP admitted that writing about their trauma was therapeutic but has now decided it’s wrong for others to do it. Which, you know… that’s just fucking cruel. No, it’s not appropriate to walk out into the middle of the street and scream about your abuse because you’re not really doing it in a way that everyone present has volunteered to be subjected to. That’s not okay. But putting something up on your personal blog on the internet, tagging it properly, or writing it and putting it on Ao3? That’s not the same thing. Tags exist as warnings and filters. Ao3 is a safe space for readers and writers. It allows writers to put their work up, no matter how many Bad Things it has in it, and it has an organized tag system that allows readers to know what they’re getting into. And I think that’s amazing! It’s wonderful to know what kind of themes and topics you’re about to deal with while reading. Ao3 allows people to decide whether or not they’re ready to engage with the topics present and that’s fantastic!
But you know, that can’t happen if we don’t write it. It may surprise some people, but reading something that deals with a person’s trauma can be cathartic. Again, trauma is complicated. Sometimes one of the brain’s defense mechanisms is to fetishize that which hurts us. Sometimes the brain goes “hey, that Bad Thing is scary but let’s make it not scary! Let’s handle it this way instead!” and that’s healthy. It’s a way of processing and recontextualizing so that we can start to work through it. Does everyone do this? No. Do some people? Yes. Is it okay? Yes. There’s nothing wrong with it. But the people who aren’t comfortable with writing their own trauma or haven’t reached that point yet might need fiction to do it with. If we’re not allowed to write it, the people who need to read it can’t do that. So you know, if there is just one trauma survivor reading a fic to cope and process that was written by a non-trauma survivor, I think that fic is more than worth it.
But I said I’d point out why the idea that I can’t share my trauma is so insidious, so I’ll address that now. It’s telling survivors to shut up. If I can’t talk about who hurt me and what happened in a way I’m comfortable, how can I ever really help myself? How can I heal if I’m not allowed to express myself? Yeah, I have a therapist and a support group but that’s not enough. I need to be acknowledged. Survivors need to be seen and by telling them that they’re not allowed to express themselves in a safe place (which is what fiction is) you’re effectively telling them to shut the hell up. The message is effectively, “no one cares what happened to you. You’re gross. Stop talking” and that’s so fucking gross and cruel and wrong. No! We let survivors speak!
I know plenty of people who the softer things don’t actually help. I’m one of them. Taking a bath doesn’t help me process my trauma. Baking doesn’t help. Jogging and mindfulness and drinking smoothies doesn’t help. I need to write about it. I need to express it and physically talking about it, physically saying “this happened to me”, is too difficult for me. I’m getting better, but a lot of that is thanks to writing and the community of darkfic writers who help me process, who listen to me, who are the shining light in the dark for me. I’ve been free of self-harm for a year this past October and you know what? I think a lot of that is because I’ve given myself permission to express my suffering. I no longer have to hurt myself because I can be seen and that’s so fucking liberating.
To the survivors out there who are uncomfortable with darkfic existing, I sympathize. I actually do. There are things in fiction that piss me off and squick me and make me mad. There are things I don’t like seeing. But, it’s not my issue. I can’t tell other people they’re not allowed to write it. I can wonder about their motives, but I can’t say for sure what those motives are b/c I don’t know them. I understand the discomfort. I understand the side-eyeing. I understand being disgusted. But I’m not going to tell them to stop because there’s a chance that writing it the way they’re writing it is saving their life. Bottom line is this: there is no way to know why every person writing what they’re writing is doing it. Are some doing it for titillation? Yes. Are some coping? Yes. Are some harming themselves? Yes. But it’s not up for me to say that everyone participating is doing the same thing and I damn well am not going to condemn a whole group or practice that I know can help just because it makes me feel weird. Have a little compassion and empathy. Try to understand that we’re all at different places in our journey in life, and that some people cope differently and that’s okay.
OP asks that you listen survivors and I have. I’ve got my own thoughts and opinions and so do friends of mine who are survivors. We disagree with the notion that darkfic shouldn’t exist.
They’re just too fluffy for me. The few I’ve read never have anything happen in them. I need some kind of drama or I’m gonna lose interest fast. I am almost 1000% sure I will never write one.
@rosemoonweaver I was following someone that once reblogged a post and put in their tags that they didn’t understand why all fics weren’t just happy and fluffy because fanfic is a happy place in a sad world. Like, more power to you for your decision person – you read your fluff and happy endings, no skin off my teeth – but to me?
Fanfic is a happy place but it’s also a form of entertainment and I expect to be entertained, you know? Give me some drama and angst and a hopeful ending (or even a heartbreaking ending or cliffhanger – I just want to be intrigued!).
The only real “traditional” one I wrote was my Sam/Jess/Brady and I used it for RSCC anti-valentine’s day. It was like 1k of dull, boring, tooth rotting fluff that I still dislike because I feel like nothing happened.
If all fic was happy and fluffy I wouldn’t be reading or writing it tbh. I’m 100% with you there. I love a happy ending, but make it worth it. Give me some heartache, some mystery, some danger, just something.
I can only maintain interest in something fluffy for about 1.5k without feeling the need to have something else happen. I think that’s the perfect length for a slice of life fic, which is the perfect place for fluff for me. But I cannot maintain enthusiasm much longer than that.
lbr though, nothing actually happens in a coffee shop au ever. Unless you make the coffee shop like, idk, a cover for some kind of illegal outfit, it’s gonna be tooth rotting fluff.
Oh my god coffeeshop AU/mafia AU – this needs to be written.
Jimmy and Castiel Novak are a couple of sweet guys running a super cute coffee shop in the middle of the city. But what no one knows is that they’re using the coffeeshop as a cover for drug smuggling for the local mafia family. Detective Dean Winchester might be getting close to cracking the case – if those twins would just stop feeding him their delicious lattes and cakes…
Oh my god, yes, please! I need that!
Ahaha I would read the hell out of it, but I’ve never even considered writing a mafia fic before lol.
lol. It could be fun, though. You might enjoy it…
I’ve never had much interest in the mafia in general, I wouldn’t do it justice. Plus I’ve never really written dcj – Honestly there’s a ton of other authors that’d do it better – y’all are free to take the idea and run with it.
That’s fair. If you’re not interested writing a whole fic is probably not a good idea.
Just gonna throw this out there, though, but dcj shippers tend to be… excitable is a good word for it. If you ever did want to try your hand at it we’d be very appreciative. Just sayin’.
Yes! I didn’t mean to imply I’d never write it – I want to write DCJ sooooo badly. I’d just rather dip my toes in at first – I’m thinking of writing them for one of my kink bingo squares actually, I just need to decide which.
😀 *is very excited*
Now, I’m intrigued. Any particular ones you’re leaning towards?
Well I’m kinda leaning toward objectification (bottom/sub Dean). But I have voyeurism which would be fun too – but I have a great Wincest idea for that so I’m super torn on that square. And then there’s finger sucking which would also work for DCJ bottom/sub Dean – but again – that one I’m leaning more toward Wincest with bottom/sub Sam or even Sastiel/past Wincestiel while Dean’s a demon – Sam kinda regresses and sometimes can’t sleep without sucking Cas’ fingers – less a kink for that one and more just angst.
All of those sound awesome!
I’m pretty partial to voyeurism with Wincest myself, but that’s just my opinion. Also, I dig the idea of sastiel/past wincestiel with all that angst. I’d be interested to see whatever you wind up writing though, for all of those squares.
Yeah, that’s kinda my thought. But objectification is up in the air, I just know it’s going to be subby Dean getting dressed up like a human doll and completely objectified in public by whoever his Dom(s) is/are.
At some point (aka once I get off my lazy ass and finish this part of Four’s Company) I’m going to release my whole card. And I think when I do, I’m going to make a list of the kinks I have no pairing in mind for (cause a few are like… screaming a certain ship, others I’m just ??? on), and then put up a list of ships I’d like to try writing (like DCJ or Mick/Ketch or even ones I don’t write enough like Destiel) and see what my readers think would be fun. Not for requests, but just to kinda maybe get the creative juices flowing. Maybe do the same with the ships on the card that I don’t know what kinks would work best.
That’s a good idea! (Both the objectification and the card thing.) I might have to steal that idea for my polybingo card. There are some squares I know what I’m gonna do with (or have mostly written) but others, like firefighter au or sam/cas/balthazar are totally drawing blanks for me. If I was more organized I’d be finished with it or closer to done but I’m a hot mess.
They’re just too fluffy for me. The few I’ve read never have anything happen in them. I need some kind of drama or I’m gonna lose interest fast. I am almost 1000% sure I will never write one.
@rosemoonweaver I was following someone that once reblogged a post and put in their tags that they didn’t understand why all fics weren’t just happy and fluffy because fanfic is a happy place in a sad world. Like, more power to you for your decision person – you read your fluff and happy endings, no skin off my teeth – but to me?
Fanfic is a happy place but it’s also a form of entertainment and I expect to be entertained, you know? Give me some drama and angst and a hopeful ending (or even a heartbreaking ending or cliffhanger – I just want to be intrigued!).
The only real “traditional” one I wrote was my Sam/Jess/Brady and I used it for RSCC anti-valentine’s day. It was like 1k of dull, boring, tooth rotting fluff that I still dislike because I feel like nothing happened.
If all fic was happy and fluffy I wouldn’t be reading or writing it tbh. I’m 100% with you there. I love a happy ending, but make it worth it. Give me some heartache, some mystery, some danger, just something.
I can only maintain interest in something fluffy for about 1.5k without feeling the need to have something else happen. I think that’s the perfect length for a slice of life fic, which is the perfect place for fluff for me. But I cannot maintain enthusiasm much longer than that.
lbr though, nothing actually happens in a coffee shop au ever. Unless you make the coffee shop like, idk, a cover for some kind of illegal outfit, it’s gonna be tooth rotting fluff.
Oh my god coffeeshop AU/mafia AU – this needs to be written.
Jimmy and Castiel Novak are a couple of sweet guys running a super cute coffee shop in the middle of the city. But what no one knows is that they’re using the coffeeshop as a cover for drug smuggling for the local mafia family. Detective Dean Winchester might be getting close to cracking the case – if those twins would just stop feeding him their delicious lattes and cakes…
Oh my god, yes, please! I need that!
Ahaha I would read the hell out of it, but I’ve never even considered writing a mafia fic before lol.
lol. It could be fun, though. You might enjoy it…
I’ve never had much interest in the mafia in general, I wouldn’t do it justice. Plus I’ve never really written dcj – Honestly there’s a ton of other authors that’d do it better – y’all are free to take the idea and run with it.
That’s fair. If you’re not interested writing a whole fic is probably not a good idea.
Just gonna throw this out there, though, but dcj shippers tend to be… excitable is a good word for it. If you ever did want to try your hand at it we’d be very appreciative. Just sayin’.
Yes! I didn’t mean to imply I’d never write it – I want to write DCJ sooooo badly. I’d just rather dip my toes in at first – I’m thinking of writing them for one of my kink bingo squares actually, I just need to decide which.
😀 *is very excited*
Now, I’m intrigued. Any particular ones you’re leaning towards?
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