@unforth-ninawaters
There’s Ceasar who’s in season 11. He was also married to/in a relationship with a guy named Jesse. (And he’s still alive.) So, there’s him but he’s the only other hispanic/latinx character I can think of… 
There’s only 4 Asian charcters, too and three of them are dead. (Kevin, his girlfriend who’s name escapes me, Linda Tran, and Dagon the demon)
@unforth-ninawaters
Thanks
It’s definitely an unlearning process and I hate that it was even a part of my grown up. My mom was much better than my dad (as she was with everything because she’s a decent human and he wasn’t around for most of my life) but the influence from auxiliary family members was still pretty heavy. And even the ones who never joined were still racists. It was a fucking mess and I look back now on some of the shit I heard and was exposed to and I am horrified. So, yeah, I pay attention because I never want to be like them or do to other people even a fraction of what they did.
@unforth-ninawaters
Heinrickson! Crap, I can’t believe I forgot about Victor! He was one of my favorites in the early seasons! Okay, so that’s 8. Still pathetic, though.
I’m lucky because I can’t recall ever seeing Victor as a bad guy but I’m pretty sure it would piss me off because, like you said, he was such a good guy. I freaking loved him. I can definitely see balancing out Gordon or Uriel with Heinrickson. (Now I’m irritated with myself because I could’ve put Victor on a pirate ship but I used Rufus. Dammit.)
But yeah, the POC track record is pathetic. And it’s a pain in the ass when trying to navigate that in fic. Esp when, honestly, Gordon, the Alpha Vamp, and Uriel were really fun bad guys. They were all charismatic an alluring in their own ways. But you only really have Rufus, Max Banes, Joshua, and Heinrickson as counterbalances. Which, yeah that’s great but there should be enough black guys that you don’t need to worry about balancing it out and not portraying them all as assholes. It’s definitely a sucky situation but at least there is some way of kinda making it better when those three (or Raphael) just work best as antagonists.
They are mostly standards out of habit – its become fanon because everyone is used to reading the characters that way.
I mean, yeah, I get that but I question why these things happen the way they do. I get the Meg thing and the Benny thing (to an extent) but I don’t get the Balthazar thing. Or the Lisa thing. Obviously, no one has to like these two characters but the way I see them presented is so wildly different that I boggles my mind. The common fanon versions of these characters just doesn’t make that much sesne to me. Now, granted, I prefer fanon!Jimmy in all his promiscuous glory. And I *almost* screwed Jo over in a fic I never finished (I did have a recovery plan but I don’t care to actually finish it now) so I’m not exempting myself from this critique. But I just wonder the standard tends to be that past relationships were terrible and now that our characters have found The One it’s all sunshine and rainbow.
Obviously, it’s partly because someone did it one way and then someone else did it the same way and then a popular fic did it and now everyone does it. On one hand, I’m curious about the origin of fanon trends and on the other, I’m curious as to why the trends become popular standards. I actually think it has a lot to do with timing and less to do with “quality” but that’s just my theory. (Also my theory as to why some fics are more popular than others. Though talent plays a role for sure, there are some I’m convinced are a combination of niche and timing.)
It does, however, bug me when it taints other parts of fandom. Like, when I worry about clicking on fics with certain past relationships because I know what they’re most likely going to be and I Do Not Agree. (But the way past and minor relationships are tagged is a whole seperate issue, too, so…)
I totally get that I’m being a picky little shit, but it’s mostly the character thing that bothers me. The character thing is actually a beef I have b/c it’s a pain in the butt to find a fic where some of my favorite minor characters aren’t jerks. I get that you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlet but it always seems to be the same few eggs. I know, I’m picky, and I’ll still read fics where my favorite minor characters aren’t the way I see them if the writing is good but it bugs and makes my multishipping heart sad. And it also bugs me that so many past relationships were either all awful or meaningless.
I mean I basically agree. I personally don’t mind seeing Balthazar made into a bit of a jerk, because I happened to not actually like him very much, but it makes me really sad how consistently Lisa is made into a raving bitch. On the other hand, though…I get it. Like, canon has options for putting Sam in a bad relationship – Ruby – and for putting Cas in a bad relationship – April, if he’s bi or het, or Uriel or Zach or some such if he’s not – but I can’t really think of anyone that Dean had a relationship with who wasn’t basically good? Especially since Dean is so often cast as bi, which means people want to have his past bad relationship be with a woman, which nixes the most obvious choice, Alastair. As to his relationships with women…I mean, I guess Anna went a bit south, and I don’t personally like Cassie as much as a lot of fans seem to, and Lisa ended badly but that was WAAAAY more on Dean than on her…but yeah…anyway I think exactly as you say a lot of it is just people getting in the habit of seeing certain characters certain ways, and it’s heavily influenced by a BNFic getting written and then emulated, though I think that’s harder to trace for the relationships than, say, BDSM (so many Carry On clones. So many.)
I do find I’m intrigued why I’ve basically never seen a fic where Cas’ bad relationship is with Uriel. Including me, I’ve never written one, and the more I think about it now the more I think I should, since he’s the most obvious “bad” relationship choice for Cas – they’re contemporaries, Uriel is good looking, he abused and manipulated Cas flagrantly, etc. And, well, I think we all know why it doesn’t get written.
*screams for the people in the back SYSTEMIC RACISM IS A THING*
And, well, as to why we so often see bad relationships in their pasts…well, if you’re going to write some drama into the story there aren’t many choices, are there? For a shorter fic that doesn’t matter, but for a long fic, there has to be SOMETHING to generate drama. They’re either:
1. Going to have had tough childhoods in some fashion, or
2. Going to have gone through difficult times as adults, or
3. Going to have a tough time navigating their relationship together or apart, or
4. Some combination of the above.
And in the end these are going to fall into certain set categories, in part dictated by our desire to link AUs to canon, in part dictated by the tropes we’ve been exposed to our whole lives. Having a Terrible Ex ™ is such a standard of ALL romance genres that if the story is more romance than any other genre it’s a pretty automatic direction to go in, so when people conceive these stories, they go, “hey, maybe someone in Dean’s past was terrible to him! Who can it be…who can it be…hey, Lisa!” and then there we are.
And I think you know all of this, and just wanted to vent, and that’s cool – it frustrates me, too, and depending on how things are handled I’ve noped out of fics that do these things, but from a writer/narrative stand point, we get bound up by the fact that there are a limited number of canon characters who make any sense in certain roles, and that plus habit means the same people tend to get shit on over and over again.
(I know I make a conscious choice pretty often to try to buck that – I didn’t like Michael or Balthazar much so I personally don’t mind being terrible to them, and of course I think everyone who reads my stuff knows what I think of John Winchester and how I usually use him as a character, but I try to write Lisa into fics in a more positive way than I usually see because I liked Lisa and I think she gets the shit end of the stick way too often in fics…)
The Lisa thing drives me nuts. I mean, I get it, for the reasons you’ve mentioned but she was actually a really supportive character. She was a big positive in Dean’s life so I can’t do that to her. The most I’ll do to her and Dean is to have them realize they’re just not right for each other because she was kind and understanding.
I do have an alternative for Dean though, and that’s Lydia. IDK if you remember her but she was the woman who used him to have a monster baby in season seven. That basically opens up a whole can of shitty ex material like lying and manipulation and even the whole baby-daddy drama I’ve seen with Lisa in some fics. Plus, she’s not in a lot of canon so I can make her anyway I like. She’s my go-to awful ex. Abaddon could also be an option even though they never actually had a relationship but she was a villain and I have no issue with casting people who died as villains as bad exes.
Uriel though is tricky for me. I definitely get that he could work as Cas’s ex but I’m hesitant to put black characters in the asshole role. I realize this is also a symptom of systemic racism but I do worry about putting certain characters in negative roles. I mean, I did give Gordon a role as a guard in Under the Surface and even though I disliked him and he creeps me out and I think it’s justifiable to put characters who were antagonists in antagonist roles I still worried about that and have wondered if I should go back and change that. Granted, I know that characters who were jerks in canon can be jerks in fanfic and no one will batt an eyelash but still. I can name, off the top of my head seven black male characters and half of them were bad. No matter how they show up in canon I still worry about putting them in antagonist role. I’ve never talked about it super openly but I have family members who are in the klan and I’m constantly worried about how I’m doing things and thinking about things because I don’t want to be like them and I don’t want to offend. So, you know, it’s racism but because I’m trying to aviod it in an odd way and I probably should write Uriel as Cas’s ex.
That being said, Uriel is a good ex for Cas for the reasons you’ve mentioned.
And yeah, you’re write about the limited stuff we deal with but I guess I’m constantly looking for ways that involve personal growth and change. Plus I guess I’m odd because I prefer a good story first and a good romance second. But you’re right about the way things happen and why certain characters get the roles they do, I’m mostly just irritated.
They are mostly standards out of habit – its become fanon because everyone is used to reading the characters that way.
I mean, yeah, I get that but I question why these things happen the way they do. I get the Meg thing and the Benny thing (to an extent) but I don’t get the Balthazar thing. Or the Lisa thing. Obviously, no one has to like these two characters but the way I see them presented is so wildly different that I boggles my mind. The common fanon versions of these characters just doesn’t make that much sesne to me. Now, granted, I prefer fanon!Jimmy in all his promiscuous glory. And I *almost* screwed Jo over in a fic I never finished (I did have a recovery plan but I don’t care to actually finish it now) so I’m not exempting myself from this critique. But I just wonder the standard tends to be that past relationships were terrible and now that our characters have found The One it’s all sunshine and rainbow.
Obviously, it’s partly because someone did it one way and then someone else did it the same way and then a popular fic did it and now everyone does it. On one hand, I’m curious about the origin of fanon trends and on the other, I’m curious as to why the trends become popular standards. I actually think it has a lot to do with timing and less to do with “quality” but that’s just my theory. (Also my theory as to why some fics are more popular than others. Though talent plays a role for sure, there are some I’m convinced are a combination of niche and timing.)
It does, however, bug me when it taints other parts of fandom. Like, when I worry about clicking on fics with certain past relationships because I know what they’re most likely going to be and I Do Not Agree. (But the way past and minor relationships are tagged is a whole seperate issue, too, so…)
I totally get that I’m being a picky little shit, but it’s mostly the character thing that bothers me. The character thing is actually a beef I have b/c it’s a pain in the butt to find a fic where some of my favorite minor characters aren’t jerks. I get that you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlet but it always seems to be the same few eggs. I know, I’m picky, and I’ll still read fics where my favorite minor characters aren’t the way I see them if the writing is good but it bugs and makes my multishipping heart sad. And it also bugs me that so many past relationships were either all awful or meaningless.
Agree 100% on Balthazar and Michael.
This is gonna sound really contradictory for a minute but bear with me.
I hate that Balthazar is made to be something he isn’t in fan fic and that Micheal is never allowed to be more than a less directly involved version of season 5 Lucifer.
Balthazar did one bad thing. He was dealing in human souls when he shouldn’t’ve been and when he was caught he stopped. In his defense, it was likely he was doing this to get enough power to stop Rapheal from starting another apocalypse, but it was still wrong. That was one thing. Other than that he had an attitude but he was on the good side. But he’s an asshole to Cas like 80% of the time in fic. That bugs me.
And Michael was in charge of heaven and pretty much allowed all kinds of bad shit. But, fanfic is typically the place to play with ideas canon dropped. If Michael is supposed to be like Dean who would he do if he found out his father was basically a feckless loser who abandoned everything because he got bored? I mean, it’s fair to say that while Dean was loyal to John he’s lost some of the good feeling he had for his dad as he’s gotten older. He didn’t like the pressure he felt as a result of John’s actions (no matter how well intentioned. I’m not getting into the JW debate rn). If Dean felt he had the weight of the world on his shoulders, how would Michael feel? He had to run heaven and care for all his siblings, knowing someday he’d have to kill his (probably) favorite brother. Hmmmm. Wonder where we’ve heard that before??? I’m just saying fanfic presents the opportunity to paint Michael as a dissaffected man/angel who’s faith in his father was shattered and that can be fun to play with. It doesn’t mean he has to be a villain.
But I’m biased and I know that. I just don’t like when things are one way and deviation is rare.
I totally agree. Balthazar is always used as the ex-boyfriend or the annoying, flighty friend. For a fandom that loves to find parallels and write meta, barely anyone talks about Balthazar or speaks of why he rebelled from heaven. There are so many possibilities with Balthazar and yet we throw him aside.
Michael, also, is completely underrated. To me, my favorite version of Michael is the caring older brother. I love exploring the relationship between Michael and Castiel. It’s so complex, too— the angel who’s vessel is Dean Winchester, and the angel who saved (and loves) him. I’d love to see a fic where Michael is just as conflicted as Dean is about following his father’s orders and exploring the concept of free will. To do that, someone would have to go back to Supernatural’s roots about family and choice. I would love to read something about that.
Let’s talk about what we do know about Balthazar though! Holy crap. So in 12×10 Ishim mentions that Cas eventually got promoted and had both Uriel and Balthazar under his command. Also, Anna but that’s kind of a side point. Anyway, we know Ishim mentions Balthazar in the same breath as Uriel and refers to them both as good soldiers which Uriel totally fits but Balthazar, not so much (in terms of what a “good soldier” means to heaven). So, here’s the thing, Anna rebelled and fell because she wanted to be human. This happened around the same time Dean was born. Balthazar faked his death. So, he still wanted to be an angel but there had to be something important enough that made him rebel and we don’t know when it was or what it was. Something made him go from “good soldier” to rebel and outcast. Something so big he didn’t even tell Cas who was not only his commander but a good friend he really trusted. His good friend he “stood for in heaven”. And we know Cas felt pretty much the same about Balthazar because he trusts Balthazar even after finding out he faked his death. A friend who’s death he grieved. (How many times has that happened?) Also, interesting to note that Balthazar is the only angel who called Cas Cas first and not Castiel. Basically there is a really interesting backstory here that we don’t know about.
Like, I think it’s safe to say Balthazar and Cas have a history and whatever happened that made Balthazar rebel wasn’t small. I wish I knew what it was but it seems like the perfect thing to play with.
Ugh. This and the thing about Michael really makes me want to do gen-fic character focused snapshot fics. Like, little things that don’t change canon but give an understanding of characters (or at least how I would do the characters and their relationships to each other).
Honestly a lot of fics are horrible for making side characters cardboard. Even some of the dudes are just there to make a scene pass by so we can just get back to our main pairing. Like this is totally fine for short fics but when you get into long fic and it’s just 50k of only the main pairing I tend to get bored.
I feel like when it comes to short fic you’re kinda stuck in an odd place where you either gotta give a few side characters lines and the rest are silent or you give everyone something and then it’s longer than you expected. Which, I’m not going to complain about more of your stuff because it’s awesome.
But yeah, I get bored with 50k of only two people.
Claire/Jess/Sam + double penetration via pegging would be fun. 😉
You’re the worst and I love you.
I’ve continued to watch it but Clara is just… UGHHHH. I don’t like her. I like Capaldi’s doctor cause he kinda reminds me of more classic Who but I guess they’re getting rid of him when they finally come back.
Really? Why? I heard all kinds of good things about him. I couldn’t stand Clara. I only watched a few eps w/her in them (the specials mostly) but I never liked her and I didn’t think Capaldi could save it for me. Cause it’s not just Clara, it’s that the whole thing kinda changed tone in a way I didn’t like. I don’t know how to describe it, it just lost it’s luster for me. But I’m glad you’re still enjoying it!
@justanothersaltandburn
OMG! My friend and I had pretty much that SAME idea for a reincarnation AU! We started writing it for Samifer actually but it kinda fell apart and then I stopped shipping it whoops. But yes!! And I like Martha but I LOVE Donna. I miss her so friggin’ much.
Nice! @maliciouslycreative and I have been bouncing ideas for a dcj reincarnation au around for a while. If I had more drive I’d do it but…
And the Dean/Cas/Meg one is one I want to do but, again, drive.
It sucks that your AU fell apart. It sounds like an awesome idea.
Dude! I loved Martha and Donna. I miss them both so damn much. Donna was a freaking trip! She was loud and opinionated and funny and I love the ep with her and the ood. I haven’t watched DW since after Matt Smith’s first year (and the specials) but damn am I nostalgic for the RTD era. Like, I might be alone in this, but I really don’t like Moffat’s DW. He’s all style and no substance. RTD was silly when it came to aliens a lot of the time but the companions knocked it out of the park. I didn’t like Rose much but I do like her better than Clara. But yeah, Martha and Donna are my favorite companions of all time.
This is Not a Blog 